any semi-auto suggestions for me?

For a first gun I'd suggest getting a .22. The one I have is a Ruger 10/22, and I'm very happy with it. It's small, lightweight, and cheap to shoot.

Another good choice is a Marlin model 60. I don't have one, but folks always seem to have good things to say about them.

An AR-15 is a good choice if you want more power than a .22 offers.

Smith and Wesson M&P 15 Sport 5.56 - 6.45 lbs - $625
Smith and Wesson M&P 15/22 .22lr - 5.5 lbs - $499
Bushmaster Superlight Carbine 5.56 - 5.1 lbs - $699

I don't own one, nor have I ever seen or held one:

Keltec Sub-2000
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/

It is light.

How about one of these ?

Some people like the kel-tec su16? 4.7lbs and takes AR mags.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_151/products_id/17742.

After having owned all manner of semi-auto magazine fed rifles over the years, I've come to terms that if someone was to only own one rifle, then a good AR15 would be the wisest choice.

If light weight was my number 1 priority, I would go with a lightweight profile barrel (huge difference in my experience), a flat top upper receiver with an added rear sight to eliminate the carry handle; a folding sight gives you more flexibility if you decide to add optics later. A set of Carbine handguards (not M4) would give you a nice slim profile and be very lightweight. Using a CAR stock instead of the M4 stock will also save some weight. The end result would be a very handy, quick carbine that still offers you some modularity down the road. Of course, you'd probably have to put together this package, but you should be able to find an upper meeting this criteria already built. Buying a lower and sorting out the furniture would be your only other hurdle. Would be well worth the "hassle" IMO.

Ruger Mini 14

Ruger 10/22-easy to handle, cheap to shoot/purchase, will last, can modify to your heart's content, accurate enough for plinking, hunting, even SD if necessary.

If you want a centerfire, there are probably a dozen very good choices, depending on use, budget, comfort, ability to modify, etc. The AR, Ruger Mini, or even an SKS may work.

I liked the Kel Tec Sub 2000 I had, but I wouldn't recommend one for someone of limited strength. They're straight blowback, so the recoil spring in the stock tube is rather stout, and the charging handle is rather small.

The locked breech SU16 series are far easier to manipulate. If you go with an SU16, I'd look at the B, C, and CA models for their much sturdier & more precise AR-15/M16 style front sights, as compared to the wide & odd to adjust orange plastic blade on the A model. The B has a longer sight radius (than the C & CA), but the C & CA have all parkerized steel parts.

All that said, the S&W M&P15 Sport in the low $600 range (only slightly more than the Kel Tecs) is hard to beat. It's probably the best value to be had in a $600 semi-auto rifle.

I like the idea of using a .22 for smaller, weaker, less experienced shooters. The cost of the rifle and ammo is such that you can turn a non-experience shooter into a well-experienced shooter for not a lot of money in a short amount of time. Also, I don't care who you are, I'm not volunteering to get shot with a .22.
Considering the cost of the SU-16 rifles, you can get a decent AR for a little more. the SU-16C can be fired from the folded stock position, which gives it an edge over the rest, IMO, but I can't imagine having decent accuracy firing like that. An M4gergy would be my top recommendation for anyone in need of a lightweight rifle. I'm going to start looking more heavily at the polymer receiver ARs for an ultralight build.
I think New Frontier is advertising their lowers boast a 7.5 Oz weight difference over the aluminum billet receivers.


303Tom, I know I've seen one of those before, but I can't recall exactly what it is.

ruger 10-22

AR platform is the only sensible choice...infinately customizable to however one wants it - and with great accuracy and reliability to be had by all.

Ns66, the Bushmaster Superlight is a variant of their Carbon-15 rifles, and utilizes carbon reinforced polymer upper & lower receivers to cut weight. The polymer uppers in particular are not known for strength & durability. The included red dot is a pretty cheap Bushnell model. Bushmaster also only warrants their firearms for one year.

The S&W M&P15 Sport can be found for a little less money. At 6.45 lbs it's a little bit heavier than the plastic receiver Bushmaster, but still quite light for a semi-auto rifle. Build quality & durability on S&W's AR-15 style rifles are excellent, which I think is quite important for your intended uses. The included fixed sights are top quality, so it's ready to go until you can add a high quality red dot if you choose to go that route. S&W has a one year warranty that then transfers to their Lifetime Service Policy (lifetime warranty) as long as you fill out the registration card & mail it in within 30 days of purchase.

I hope this helps.

I personally feel Bushmaster is as good as most, better than some. The selection is good for someone like yourself, deciding for a first AR..I recently bought a Doublestar lower and put a DPMS flattop upper on it. It was the most cost effective way for me to go. The DS Co. is in KY. and seem to be catching a good reputation for affordability and quality. Good luck, you have a fun decision to make..

BCM AR-15 lower, put a rimfire upper on it for now. When you've perfected your marksmanship skills and are comfortable stepping up, buy a mil-spec upper from a reputable manufacturer.

Allow the links to demonstrate:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/117.htm-BCM complete lower receiver. Built to mil-spec, so it's very well-made and you can count on it down the road as a platform for building further AR-15's.
http://www.tacticalsol.com/tshome/ar22-22lr-conversion-Tactical Solutions upper. I'd suggest the AR22-M4 upper, as you'll want to learn on iron sights first. You'll also want a rear sight, a Magpul MBUS2 rear sight will serve you just fine.
You'll also want some magazines, I'd suggest CMMG's mags or the offerings from Black Dog Machine.

When you want to step up to centerfire, check out this:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/23929.php-the MOE MBUS option would work great for you as well, just buy a few good mil-spec mags with Magpul followers.

For further info on the AR-15 platform, join M4carbine.net. They're far more knowledgeable and dedicated than I am over there, and they'll introduce you to all the goodies.

Of course, you may just want a Ruger 10/22 with some Tech Sights, that setup will total under $300 while the above AR will reach $800 fast.

USAF_Vet said:

I like the idea of using a .22 for smaller, weaker, less experienced shooters. The cost of the rifle and ammo is such that you can turn a non-experience shooter into a well-experienced shooter for not a lot of money in a short amount of time. Also, I don't care who you are, I'm not volunteering to get shot with a .22.
Considering the cost of the SU-16 rifles, you can get a decent AR for a little more. the SU-16C can be fired from the folded stock position, which gives it an edge over the rest, IMO, but I can't imagine having decent accuracy firing like that. An M4gergy would be my top recommendation for anyone in need of a lightweight rifle. I'm going to start looking more heavily at the polymer receiver ARs for an ultralight build.
I think New Frontier is advertising their lowers boast a 7.5 Oz weight difference over the aluminum billet receivers.


303Tom, I know I've seen one of those before, but I can't recall exactly what it is.

Click to expand...

It is a French MAS 49/56 in 7.5........

I will second the MAS 49/56 as a good rifle. The LOP is too short for me, so the rubber buttstock in the photo is a must. Make sure you get one in 7.5 French and not converted .308. 7.5 French is easy to reload for using cut down 6.5 mm Swedish Mauser brass.

I don't understand the idea that buying a .22 upper for an AR is a good idea. If you do buy another centerfire upper for the lower later on you will essentially be stuck without a lower for the rimfire. If you just buy a .22 to start with you'll always have that .22 and you won't be sharing parts between two rifles. What is most likely going to happen is that the rimfire upper will be tossed in a corner or in a box and you won't use it again because swapping back and forth will be a lot more hassle than you think.

Click to expand...

If actually owned one you'd understand that swapping uppers requires about ten seconds to push out two pins, switch the uppers, and push the two pins back in.

I don't believe you can learn to shoot better using a rimfire upper either. From what I've heard the accuracy of those Frankenstein guns is not all that great compared to a regular .22.

Click to expand...

So you have no actual experience .22 LR AR uppers. You're confused between a .22 LR conversion kit for a .223/5.56 upper, and a dedicated .22 LR upper. Conversion kits are simply a bolt carrier group with a chamber adapter that lets you send the .221 diameter .22 LR bullets down the .224 diameter .223/5.56 bore. In contrast, a dedicated .22 LR upper has a .22 LR chamber, and .221 diameter bore. A dedicated .22 LR AR-15 upper is just as accurate as any regular .22 LR rifle with equal quality barrels.

You can get a very good .22 for not a lot of money and you can have one that will always be complete. There's just no way I would try to share a lower for two different rifles. The price of an upper will be much higher than the price of a good semi-auto rimfire bought as a whole rifle. It just makes zero sense to me.

Click to expand...

You probably don't get people buying rimfire barrels for T/C Contenders & Encores either. Those barrels cost more than a $160 base model Marlin rimfire too. Just like swapping uppers on an AR-15, T/C owners swap barrels on a receiver. It's not a new concept.

I do not see the point at all. If you just want a .22 that looks like an AR then yeah, go for it. But to actually learn to shoot you'll be MUCH better off buying a whole .22 rifle.

Click to expand...

If you want to train with the same rifle you plan to use for defense it makes quite a bit of sense. If you look at AR-15 sights you'll see that most rear sights are target type aperture sights because they've evolved from the aperture sights on US service rifles. AR sights (in any caliber from .22 LR up) are typically much better than the flimsy notched blade on cheap .22s like the Marlin Model 60.

You can buy a very good semi-auto .22 for $160 - and that's the shipped price. How much does an upper conversion cost? The ones I looked at were over $550!. And you only get half a rifle? It makes absolutely no sense to me. You can get a fantastic .22 for that price and it will actually be accurate.

Click to expand...

Again, I've addressed the accuracy issue above. You're assuming without any actual experience. Midway has a CMMG dedicated .22 LR AR upper in stock for $350, but you'll have to add the sights of your choice. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/21...y-matte-with-m4-handguard-flash-hider-pre-ban. Notice that you're getting a WASP treated (black nitride - aka Tennifer, aka Melonite) barrel which provides extreme durability. That barrel is also threaded 1/2x28 RH so you can take off the flash hider and add any popular .22 caliber muzzle device. You also have a forged aluminum upper with Mil 1913 (aka Picatinny) rail. Trying to compare a quality .22 LR AR upper to a cheap Marlin rifle is an apples to peanuts comparison.

I did find an upper for $500 but that doesn't include shipping or an FFL fee. You can get a CZ 453 for that price which will shoot fantastic. No upper conversion is ever going to match it's accuracy and you get a whole rifle instead of half a rifle.

Click to expand...

The fact that you think an AR upper requires an FFL fee further demonstrates your ignorance. An AR upper is just a part; the lower receiver is the serial numbered firearm that has to go through an FFL. I'd put a CMMG dedicated .22 LR upper against a CZ 453 any day. The accuracy will be much closer than you assume.

I've held off saying that for a long time but I just felt like it was time someone said it. It just passes as good advice without question too often and I can see a whole bunch of reasons not to do it.

Click to expand...

If you believe in training with the rifle you fight with it's a great idea. If you like the AR-15's superior ergonomics, sights, and scope mounting options it's a great idea. If you like the capability to drop in a trigger like a Geissle SSA, that will go toe to toe with any match rifle trigger, without need of a gunsmith it's a great idea. If you like having a stock that can almost instantly adjust LOP to go from an adult to a 5 year old & back again it's a great idea. If you like the ability to switch stocks, grips, and forends to fit you perfectly without need of a gunsmith (in most cases) it's a great idea.

To each his own I guess but this is something that just baffles me. I guess it's black rifle fever or something. Nothing personal guys but I don't get it at all. Heck by the time you buy an upper and a bottom you could have bought an Anschutz, which is the best rimfire you can buy AFAIK. Instead you'll get a black rifle looking .22 that isn't as accurate as a Marlin 795, which can be bought for $100. I guess you have your reasons but I don't know what they are.

Click to expand...

I hope that my comments above have dispelled the accuracy myth, and shown this isn't just a black rifle thing, but a practical concept for a variety of reasons. I do sincerely hope that my comments have at least allowed you to understand the reasoning behind a .22 LR AR upper. If black rifles aren't your thing that's totally cool with me, but hopefully my comments have helped you appreciate them more. Anschutz rifles aren't my thing, but I certainly appreciate them for their accuracy & craftsmanship.

In the interest of full disclosure a Marlin Model 60 was my first rifle & I still own it. I also own a T/C Contender, and have a .22 Mag rimfire bbl. for it too.