Old Topic...Lesson Learned?

Honestly I dont see an advantage for the use of a black rifle when hunting big game, Having said that if its all ya got then go for it. Jim Zumbo had to eat crow after that ordeal as he should have. I dont think a full auto has any use other than spraying lead and not being accurate in the process but I will support others rights to own them. I guess my point is we cant get so biased that we dont support all of our gun rights, even if you dont see the point in it. Maby the next thing they ban or regulate might be your hobby.

If the caliber is capable for the chosen game...no problem.
ten round magazine limit...I'm ok with that. I hunt with a Win. 30-30 with an eight round mag tube. Never load but five. My job is to shoot straight and kill cleanly. The second shot is to anchor my deer.

Wouldn't surprise me to see an effort to ban single shots because of the slower second shot. (devils advocate)

Ethics, caliber selection, bullet construction, hunter capable of correct placement. With those four points what difference does firearm type/style/ function matter?

Mark

Sure there are people who believe that. There are people who believe 'most anything.

There are old traditionalists who have no experience with or understanding of more modern firearm (or who do...) and feel that higher-capacity self-loading rifles derived from or similar to those used for military purposes do not meet their idea of what the sportsman's aesthetic or even, in a fuzzy sort of way, "ethics" aught to be. They feel that a deer, squirrel, duck, Sasquatch, or whatever should fall to a traditional (at least traditional to a particular era) walnut and blued steel sporting firearm. And if that's what they'd prefer to use, that's what they want you to use as well.

(Never mind that the "traditional sporting" arm chosen by many of them has its ancestry in military arms as well, or that the previous generations would have seen their choices as just as nouveau and unsporting as they see polymer self-loaders to be.)

And, then there is the corollary to this first group, who feels that modern polymer and stainless self-loaders don't belong in the woods because that will frighten the antis and non-hunters into banning hunting or guns.

Fortunately for most of us it is becoming harder and harder to locate anyone who still clings to these beliefs, and given another half-generation we should see the end of such blinkered and stifled fogeyism. For the time being, just smile and be tolerant of their intolerance, of course.

I went on a man-cation to a time share at a hunting camp in Idaho. They double booked but there was plenty of spare bunks to go around and the other Dad n son seemed nice enough. On the first day of hunting, after everyone made fun of my rimfire the night before, the son went and unloaded a full clip at an elk. He claimed it ran off and he didnt understand how it "got away". I went back up and found it shot 7 Xs bleeting in the scrub brush. I truely was overwhelmed by his attitude of "hey thats my elk", when I brought the cleaned animal back. I offered the skin, head and half the meat, but he claimed it was all his, even though he didnt bring it back. I truely believe novice hunters like this should start with a bolt action, but I must admit that FAL got the job done.

Black Rifles...

Several points here.

I for one, prefer walnut, blued steel, and a bolt action. That's what I grew up with and learned on. So that's what I mainly hunt with. But some of my hunting partners have used autoloading .308's that "look like a sporting weapon," and I see no difference between using that kind of rifle and using an M1A for hunting--in single mode.

Automatic firing weapons, IMHO, have no place in the game fields, and for that matter I don't know of any place, anywhere, that their use is legal for hunting. Unsporting, besides the danger of spraying bullets hither and yon, with no regard for a safe backstop, not to mention the ricochets.

As far as a magazine limit, I can't see the need. After one has shot at a deer (elk, sheep, rabbit, you name it) and missed, the animal is alarmed, and moving fast, and you're never going to get more than 1 or maybe 2 follow-up shots, no matter if your magazine holds 2 or 20 rounds. So what's the big deal?

Use of a "black rifle" for hunting?? Well, American hunters basically switched from lever-actions to bolt rifles because so many hunters experienced bolts rifles in WWI and II. A bolt rifle was what they learned to use, and that was the action with which they were comfortable. Now, many hunters are coming home from their military experiences with AR-15's, and THAT is the action with which they are comfortable. Why shouldn't they use that type of weapon for hunting? (I mean besides that the things are Jeezly loud on the range, due to the short bbl and the type of muzzle brake that is typical!)

With regard to Doc 2 Rn's experience, my understanding is that the game belongs to the hunter who "reduces it to posession," that is, actually kills it and tags it(or whatever is the local legality) not to mention field dressing and hauling it out. I have no use whatever for the "hunter" who shoots at an animal and makes any less than an all-out effort to humanely kill it as rapidly as possible. You leave a critter bleeding in the woods, you have abdicated any right to it, and shut up with your claims, lousy sportsman. Dark? Cold? Late? Tired? TOUGH! I truly believe that novice hunters like the one described should start by being educated in hunter ethics, before they even touch a firearm.

OK, that's off my chest. Now I'll get down off my soapbox.

Automatic firing weapons, IMHO, have no place in the game fields, and for that matter I don't know of any place, anywhere, that their use is legal for hunting. Unsporting, besides the danger of spraying bullets hither and yon, with no regard for a safe backstop, not to mention the ricochets.

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Smokey Joe, I am not an advocate for full auto hunting. and I'm pretty sure we share many of the same ideas on hunting. Having said that a goof ball kid out on a skid road during deer or elk season with a good old fashioned bolt gun has been known to spray bullets carelessly and gut shoot anything in sight I feel it depends on the person not the weapon and in the end it comes down to morals/ethics and judgement.

I am simply trying to point out the "one link out of a dogs chain" theory with gun control and the fact that "sportsman" are actively involved when it comes to gun rights, The good and the bad.

I guess I went on the ''Zumbo'' angle of the post I use an old pre 64 win for my blacktails and elk and still love shooting the doubles in the duck blind, but I dont care what the next guy uses as long as it works for him and more importantly the critter he is after. I have been know to take the AR's out after winter coyotes and for that they are great as I need follow up shots and alot of 'em as they seem to come in groups of two to three this time of year.

we can always take this to extremes... even though I grew up on a farm and kind of hunted up until I was 18 and left home, I have no desire to kill small or even large critters and really can't see why others do... with that said, I respect others doing this and would never speak against their right.... speaking of rights... the whole gun issue is about that... the right to protect yourself, your family, your property and the same of others who can't.. nothing to do with hunting. Full auto is silly, unless you have a couple hundred commies coming at you... but still they should have never been regulated let alone restricted (pre 1986 only)....

I gave up hunting many years ago so I'm not really "in the loop." Sounds like some people are still trying to substitute fire power for skill.

An EBR semi-auto in .308 sounds like just the ticket for hunting deer and elk in rough, brushy terrain. It would be short, light, and easy to handle just like a lever carbine. I'll leave the question of mag capacity for hunting to people who are better informed. However, unethical slob hunters can't be cured by legislation.Trying to ban EBR's would probably result in a ban on Browning,Remington, Benelli,etc; sporting rifles.

ShawnC said:

Are there still people that believe "black rifles" shouldn't be used for hunting?

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Sure there is......but this is America and they are free to have a opinion and to freely express it. I remember when compound bows first came on the market and how many folks snibbled about those "new fangled contraptions". Now they are the standard and recurves and longbows are the exception. I remember seeing my first EBR in the woods some 20 years ago. While the gun caught my eye and seemed outta place at the time, it was the goofus using it that was the scarey part. Since they were legal to use, it made no difference to me. It still doesn't. Still, many of those that use them for hunting fit the profile of the first hunter I ever saw with one. Maybe that's what Zumbo meant, eh?

How in the hell did a discussion of "black rifles" for hunting turn to using full auto??

3 round burst would be perfect IMO.
Especially since 223 is such a small calibre, 3 of em makes what.. .669 cal?
A lot more than the .23 restriction

I left Outdoorlife over the issue. They canned a great writer, with great talent because the gun community bullied them. I love gun owners, but seriously, this is still America and we are all allowed to have different opinions. I got my first subscription to Outdoorlife when I was 14 and saved up my money from cutting the neighbors grass to buy it, his articles were the first things I would read. His hunting trips, his rifle reviews and his writing style just made for articles that were enjoyable to read. I am still bitter about the tactical guys who got all butt hurt and bullied him out. To me it shows the ultimate lack of class when you take a man like Zumbo, and turn him into the villain.

I love my AR, my Galil, my decked out 10/22s and my tactical shotguns. But I also like my custom built Mauser actions. I hunt with bolt actions because I prefer bolt actions. Nothing against the guys who use ARs, but come on, we can coexist. Just because I (or Jim Zumbo) dont like hunting with ARs is no reason to raise all heck over the issue. I think the guys who take tactical carbine classes are silly and wasting money, but id never say they were wrong for doing so, its just not my cup of tea.

But ya back to the OPs questions. I dont like hunting with ARs. Ive done it, I just would rather have a bolt action.

They canned a great writer, with great talent because the gun community bullied them.

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That was a triumph. A lot of people needed to see that happen. I feel badly for poor Jim, as he was only the tool used to build something great. But, when you make your bed, sometimes you do have to lie down in it.

(As my favorite of Despair.com's demotivational posters says, "It may be that your purpose in life is only to serve as a warning to others." http://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html)

I love gun owners, but seriously, this is still America and we are all allowed to have different opinions.

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Yup, and this is still America where nothing says you'll be immune from the results of your words or actions. Jim made a deliberate choice. He attacked (not disagreed with, ATTACKED) the beliefs and choices of others and used his bully pulpit as a public figure to make a stand for something. Something destructive. Something hurtful. Something wrong, that should not be. Unfortunately for him -- but fortunately for everyone else -- the tide had finally turned against foes in the hunting garb of "friends" who would try to hurt the rest of us in that way.

Just because I (or Jim Zumbo) dont like hunting with ARs is no reason to raise all heck over the issue.

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I'm afraid you don't remember clearly what ol' Jim said.

Let me refresh your memory:

Jim Zumbo said:

...I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I'll go so far as to call them "terrorist" rifles. They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are "tackdrivers." Sorry, folks, in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting. We don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them, which is an obvious concern. I've always been comfortable with the statement that hunters don't use assault rifles. We've always been proud of our "sporting firearms."

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That's not expressing a personal preference to use walnut & blued steel when out butchering bambi. That's the dying howl of the snob hunter who would sell other gun owners out at the polls, ridicule them in the field, and declare the most popular firearm in America a "terrorist rifle."

He knew what he was doing. He took a chance on standing up for discrimination and denigration of others for some of the most blinkered, stupid, and illogical reasons known to man. He sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. Good for him.

I harbor no personal feelings against the man. But his words and beliefs on this matter are anathema. I'm sorry to see him hurt by the response he bought for himself. But I'm so very proud of "US" for making such a strong statement of solidarity and the power of our own beliefs.

We often wonder if we're making any impact and if any of the powerful or influential know or care what us in the "silent majority" really believe. That week, folks all over the world knew that Americans will be keeping their "assault rifles" thank-you-very-much. It was a GREAT day.

Sam1911, Thanks for putting words togeather that I simply couldnt.

"Are there still people that believe "black rifles" shouldn't be used for hunting? No flaming or judging, but if you feel this way I'm just curious what the justification is"

I guess Full auto came up as a justification, it is viewed by the sheep and even sportsman as evil and useless much like Zumbo described the black rifles.

I am sorry if I took this post of topic I was looking to much into what Mr.Zumbo had said and to me gun rights and the topic of discussion are related.

It wasn't just the "tactical guys" either, don't fool yourself by blaming just one group for the reaction. I own one AR clone I bought for the heck of it to give it a chance and it's still my least favorite gun.

I don't feel butt hurt, but you sound like you are.

John

Naaa, not butt hurt I just didnt want to take you thread off topic any more than I already did.

Im to lazy to type it all out myself, so ill just reference the Wikipedia article on the incident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Zumbo

And his letter to the Senate about his statement that was read on the Senate floor.

http://www.nraila.org/news/read/inthenews.aspx?id=9177

A quote in that letter

Jim Zumbo
That in mind, Sen. Levin must know that almost immediately after I wrote those remarks, I recanted and apologized to the millions of Americans who lawfully and responsibly own, compete with and hunt with semi-automatic rifles. I took a “crash course” on these firearms and visited with my good friend Ted Nugent on his ranch in Texas, where I personally shot an AR-15 and educated myself with these firearms.

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And on his website he has this to say.

Jim Zumbo
My career moved along nicely. I had written 23 books on hunting and fishing, was on a nationwide seminar circuit, and had written about 2,000 magazine articles, and I had a TV show, Jim Zumbo Outdoors. Then, on February 16, 2007, I wrote a blog in my Outdoor Life page about assault rifles that created an instant firestorm among America's gun owners. Within a few days, I was radioactive in the industry. There was an editorial in the Washington Post that was carried by several hundred newspapers around the country, an editorial in the New York Times, a satire about me on the Comedy Channel, and countless articles by gun and hunting writers. Less than a week after the firestorm started, most of my sponsors pulled out of my TV show, and the editors who I worked for backed off. Todd Smith, editor-in-chief of Outdoor Life magazine, asked me for my resignation, and I was suddenly without employment. I was done writing, and my TV show was on hiatus. Many of the companies that supported me in the past issued severance statements with me on their websites, as did shooting and firearms organizations such as the NRA and NSSF. The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation was the only organization to express a positive statement on their website.

Ted Nugent immediately came to my rescue, and I flew to his ranch in Texas to learn about the so-called black rifles. Ted wanted to use my ignorance as an example of an avid hunter who was unaware of the popularity and uses of these firearms. He taught me a great deal. I went on to work with the Second Amendment Foundation, denounced a statement by an anti-gun senator and exposed his strategy to continually work his flawed words in the Congressional Record, and attended a three day assault rifle course, which I immensely enjoyed. I wrote about that experience in an article in SWAT magazine.

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I think this explanation is better than what I could do. An old man got pissed off about ARs in hunting, cooled off and realized what he had just said. It happens, I just don't think he needed to be fired over it. What he said in the blog post was wrong, but I cant think of anything else he could have done to apologize to gun owners. If he had just said "o ya, about that, my bad" then of course there would be an issue. But he has done everything humanly possible to recant his statement and apologize to gun owners and in my eyes its recanted.

I guess I said all that to say differing opinions are what make the firearms community great. It just seems the minority is always suppressed. The assault rifle minority was suppressed for a while, and now the tables have turned. Either way its wrong and a happy median could easily be reached if each side understood the other.

The assault rifle minority was suppressed for a while, and now the tables have turned. Either way its wrong and a happy median could easily be reached if each side understood the other.

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It is not so simple. The good folks who sometimes chose to shoot modern design autoloading rifles were REpressed and were denigrated and attacked. Not just by Jim, and certainly not first by him. But he was loud and proud about it. He'd obviously been putting a lot of thought into it. And decided to hurt the "fraternity" he claimed to speak for rather than unify it.

The tables have turned? No. No, not really. Now that the my-old-time-way-or-the-highway crowd has been effectively broken, you're not seeing public statements talking about how we aught to kick those useless old broken down lever guns and bolt rifles out of the field, or how "we" have no need for "those" folks in our ranks. We are healthier now, smarter, wiser for having policed our ranks. The tables haven't turned, so now there's a new master in town. No, we've excised a cancer and taken measures to make the body whole.

I know long time hunters that think AR's are all full auto. They just don't know any better or have any first hand experience so they believe what they see on TV. I offer to let new shooters try my AR when I take them to the range. It's worth a box of Wolf to educate another voter, gun enthusiast and future gun owner.