Arizona strikes back: State investigates feds over gun-running

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"Arizona's state legislature will open its own investigation into the Obama administration's disgraced gun-running program, known as "Fast and Furious," the speaker of the state House said Friday
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Sounds good to me as well. I'm sure they'll be equally zealous in investigating the Bush Administration's disgraced Operation Wide Receiver gun running program, in which guns were allowed to "walk" to Mexico between 2006 and 2007.
 
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Shear, Wide Receiver didn't get anyone killed, was small in scope, DID have the Mexican government involved, and was immediately terminated when it was discovered it wasn't working. Now that you've thrown your red herring out there to try to confuse the issue, perhaps we can get back to the actual story at hand, the one where we have high ranking DoJ officials taking the Fifth Amendment in Congressional testimony. Ya know, the one where the top cop in America gets caught in perjury, that one? Yeah...
I would love to see some of the individuals involved arrested and tried for violations of state law, but I can also get every single one who could possibly face such charges will have been moved out of state by then, and fed.gov won't extradite them. :)
 
Shear, Wide Receiver didn't get anyone killed, was small in scope, DID have the Mexican government involved, and was immediately terminated when it was discovered it wasn't working. Now that you've thrown your red herring out there to try to confuse the issue,
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Red herring? Wide Receiver ran nearly two years. It was not small in scale, it was smaller, involving about 600 guns versus 2000, as if that makes a difference in one's moral calculation. Thankfully no one in the US was killed, but those weapons went to Mexico where the people who let them "walk" knew they would be used as part of a vicious and bloody conflict.
perhaps we can get back to the actual story at hand, the one where we have high ranking DoJ officials taking the Fifth Amendment in Congressional testimony
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I'm sorry, but the actual story is the fact that under two administrations the federal government deliberately let weapons flow into an armed conflict that occasionally spills across the border. I know this is an election year, but the sooner we are honest with ourselves about the actions of our government, regardless of who's in the White House, the sooner we can help put an end to these misadventures. Selective outrage will get us nowhere.
 
Shear_stress said:
Red herring? Wide Receiver ran nearly two years. It was not small in scale, it was smaller, involving about 600 guns versus 2000, as if that makes a difference in one's moral calculation. Thankfully no one in the US was killed, but those weapons went to Mexico where the people who let them "walk" knew they would be used as part of a vicious and bloody conflict.


I'm sorry, but the actual story is the fact that under two administrations the federal government deliberately let weapons flow into an armed conflict that occasionally spills across the border. I know this is an election year, but the sooner we are honest with ourselves about the actions of our government, regardless of who's in the White House, the sooner we can help put an end to these misadventures. Selective outrage will get us nowhere.
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Another example ofsomeone trying to shut down this thread too.

I wonder what some people seem to fear about this story?

Perhaps it really does go right into the White House. At least that seems to be what some fear.
These are two links that I found that describe operation Wide Receiver. I have posted them before, and will again most likely.
http://http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46714
http://http:
//www.theoutdoorwire.com/features/224570

And here is another one,http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/wide-receiver-ci-it-had-nothing-to-do-with-bush-or-even-doj?CID=examiner_alerts_article

Perhaps, if you will read these articles, you will understand the differences. Till then, it seems like you are just playing a political partisan card.
 
Perhaps, if you will read these articles, you will understand the differences. Till then, it seems like you are just playing a political partisan card.
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Bull, and it would help your argument if your links weren't from blatantly partisan sources. It's perfectly clear that I'm arguing for fairness and consistency and against the kind of selective outrage that will only come back to haunt us. Fact: guns were allowed to walk during Bush and Obama Administrations. Those responsible should pay.

If we have gotten so buried in the political muck that we become blind to the misdeeds of our government--no matter what side they claim to be on--we are in trouble.
 
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Yeah...But other than that, they were identical...!
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So which was the one that didn't involve the ATF letting guns walk? ;)

But I guess it's okay as long as you give the Mexican government a heads up.

If it's illegal, then, it goes for everybody. Period
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Absolutely. This is not kindergarten and the whole "it's okay if so and so does it" thing shouldn't be part of a rationale discussion.
 
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Shear_stress said:
So which was the one that didn't involve the ATF letting guns walk? ;)

But I guess it's okay as long as you give the Mexican government a heads up.
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There was actually an attempt made to track the guns in OWR, while there was no such effort in OF&F. This indicates a totally different intent to the two programs. Yes, and the fact that the Mexican government was informed of OWR in progress shows a decidedly different tack also.


.
 
It is true that guns were allowed to walk during both operations. There are major differences in the follow-ups that were taken as a result, however. Attempts were made during Wide Reciever to track some of the guns, which turned out to be mostly unsuccessful. After it was realized the guns were getting away (the most accurate estimates appear to be somewhere between "300+" up to around 450), the operation shifted into the Hernandez investigation, in cooperation with the Mexican government. This operation failed mostly due to investigative shortcomings of the Mexican police. At this point the tactics were, by consensus, abandoned due to the poor results. A few prosecutions were pursued, the number was around 10 IIRC.

The methods were brought back into use when Fast and Furious was begun. No serious attempts were made to track the guns, other than through informants. Concerns were raised that the operation was counterproductive by line agents, at which point their jobs were threatened (only somewhat obliquely). Guns were clearly getting away into Mexico, with no abatement of the F&F program. The program was halted when it became clear that a U.S. LEO had been murdered and guns that had been allowed to walk were found at the crime scene. When congressional investigations were begun, false statements were submitted to these investigations. These are the facts, devoid of any partisan slant.

I would wholeheartedly agree that if any crimes are discovered at any point in either operation then those responsible should be prosecuted. I would also state that it appears at present that the operation undertaken under the Bush administration was a poorly thought out, poorly run law enforcement operation. I refused to believe it at first, but now I believe that it's very possible that the motives behind the one run under Obama's had more insidious motives. YMMV.
 
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PowerG said:
I would wholeheartedly agree that if any crimes are discovered at any point in either operation then those responsible should be prosecuted. I would also state that it appears at present that the operation undertaken under the Bush administration was a poorly thought out, poorly run law enforcement operation. I refused to believe it at first, but now I believe that it's very possible that the motives behind the one run under Obama's had more insidious motives. YMMV.
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Well said, Sir -- and those are my conclusions also. good3.gif


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There was actually an attempt made to track the guns in OWR, while there was no such effort in OF&F.
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There were poor attempts to track guns in both operations: they just tried to use jerry-rigged GPS devices in FF instead of the jerry-rigged RFID devices of WR.

When congressional investigations were begun, false statements were submitted to these investigations.
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True and they should be punished to the extent possible.

Great post, PowerG. However, don't ascribe to malice what can more easily be ascribed to incompetence. I don't know, it's possible that FF was an attempt by a new administration wanting to look tough on crime by thinking they could do the same thing "better" than their predecessors. Stupid.
 
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Shear_stress said:
No, there were poor attempts to track guns in both operations: they tried to use jerry-rigged GPS devices in FF instead the jerry-rigged RFID devices of WR.



Yeah. like trying to avoid tip-offs from the other side of the border.
Maybe the later folks
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Just read PowerG's post -- he summed things up perfectly.

Anything beyond that is sheer conjecture at this point till all the facts come out (if ever) -- points on which everyone can go around in circles, with no resolution.


.
 
Just read PowerG's post -- he summed things up perfectly.

Anything beyond that is sheer conjecture at this point till all the facts come out (if ever) -- points on which everyone can go around in circles, with no resolution.
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Agreed.
 
The only thing that will sort this mess out is to start putting people on the witness stand, under oath, and start asking direct questions. The prospect of an extended stay in Lewisburg Federal Pen (not Club Fed) will loosen a lot of tongues. Let the chips fall where they may.If one of our political prostitutes has broken the law, they belong in jail, regardless of party affliation.
 
Shear_stress said:
I'm sorry, but the actual story is the fact that under two administrations the federal government deliberately let weapons flow into an armed conflict that occasionally spills across the border. I know this is an election year, but the sooner we are honest with ourselves about the actions of our government, regardless of who's in the White House, the sooner we can help put an end to these misadventures. Selective outrage will get us nowhere.
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I can see the connection between the two programs. Guns were walked in both. Both were run by the same people in Arizona. In both cases, those people kept their jobs.

I find it hard to believe that Lanny Breuer did not see the connections between the two programs, don't you? He must be the only person in America. Or he must be lying. Which do you suppose it is?
 
what our goverment needs to do is stop running our lives and just enforce the constitution like they are sworn to do and all this would not be happening. azrn
 
I'm still wondering why, in this day of superior technology, micro tracking devices could not have been put in the buttstocks of guns needing to be tracked in sting operations, etc. Anyone got an answer?
 
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