This is a different way of looking at home defense calibers...

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Ranger30-06

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Duplex Owner Wounds Young Intruder

This is a very different way of looking at selecting your HD gun/caliber. Two really big lessons are extremely emphasized here:

1) Make sure your gun is reliable with your selected ammo! Run a couple hundred rounds through it before you trust your life to it!
2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.


It's a good story with a happy ending; The bad guy goes to prison and the good guy gets his gun back. :D
 
I once had a friend put it great:

I don't care if you shoot me in the face with a rubber band gun, I'm gonna flintch. .32 gets more of an umph than the rubber band gun IMO.
 
I think we can say"any gun is better than no gun." We could also add that he is very lucky in many ways.

I hope I am never forced into a shooting situation! I'm soon to be 62 and I know I'm moving into the "target age" for many criminals. I already look it...white hair and not always moving real fast. Sonetimes my knees and ankles don't like that high speed stuff.

I can't help but wonder...what did that guy think he would find to steal in a house under renovation? Tools? Not much resale value to those. That man was lucky to win out in this.

Mark
 
The shooting will be reviewed by the city prosecutor, police said. Ziolkowski said he would drop off his weapon at the 4th District Police Station for ballistics tests as police requested. They promised to return it to him----HOPE ALL IS WELL
 
So the burgular was a "ute". At least this time Mama was NOT quoted as saying "MY baby didn't do nuthin".

On a serious note, the old guy is going to have trouble selling that place. Best toss in a shotgun with the asking price!
 
Hardtarget said:
...
I can't help but wonder...what did that guy think he would find to steal in a house under renovation? Tools? Not much resale value to those. That man was lucky to win out in this.

Mark
Click to expand...

I'm told that the prices on scrap metal and copper wire are through the roof at the moment.

For over a year we haven't had to pay the town to haul off anything made of metal. We just put it out by the road a bit separated from the actual trash and the scrap metal hunters take it within 24 hours.
 
Ziolkowski said he would drop off his weapon at the 4th District Police Station for ballistics tests as police requested. They promised to return it to him.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised it wasn't taken from him at the scene. But, I have heard of rare cases in which the defender is even asked if he has another means of protection (another gun) for use during the time his will be tied up.
 
Ranger30-06 said:
Duplex Owner Wounds Young Intruder

This is a very different way of looking at selecting your HD gun/caliber. Two really big lessons are extremely emphasized here:

1) Make sure your gun is reliable with your selected ammo! Run a couple hundred rounds through it before you trust your life to it!
Click to expand...
Can't argue with that one, so I won't.

Ranger30-06 said:
2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.
Click to expand...

I don't see how anything was "beat". It seems to me that the shot placement was adequate and the guy got lucky. I don't see how the outcome would have been worse if more penetration, expansion and energy had been applied.
 
Jeff Cooper: "First Rule of Gunfighting-have a gun"
Elmer Keith responding to a correspondent's asking him what he thought of
a mouse gun"-"Not my cup of tea but sure beats your fists". Or feet or foul language.
 
natman said:
Originally Posted by Ranger30-06
2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.
Click to expand...
I don't see how anything was "beat". It seems to me that the shot placement was adequate and the guy got lucky. I don't see how the outcome would have been worse if more penetration, expansion and energy had been applied.
Click to expand...

Well a lot of people like to push the 9mm as the minimum, and others the .380, however most people will tell you to not even touch the .32's or .25's.

The other side of the spectrum says that placement is the biggest key to success. In a way, this side is a bit more right, in the sense that poking any hole through an important part of the body (heart, spine, or head) will stop it very quickly, if not instantly.

This guy managed a threat stopping shot with one .32 ACP hollow point, because he had near perfect shot placement. Muzzle velocity, energy, and expansion were relatively irrelevant and completely trumped because of an excellent shot. If you can hit where you want to even under stress, the .32 you threw in your pocket beats the 9mm you couldn't fit under the coat so you left it in the car. Practice, practice, practice!


A couple additional key points/questions that I think can be pulled out of this are:
1) Mouse guns still have there place
2) Little calibers still poke unwanted holes in the bad guy
3) How much would have a bigger caliber helped in an identical situation? One shot of .380? 9mm? 45? Heck how about one shot of .357 or .44 mag? All of these come at big costs! (I'm not using this as an excuse for bigger is better, but it should be a driving point to practice with at least 100 rounds of whatever you plan on trusting your life to!) Recoil, gun weight, cost to practice (in the larger calibers at least), and gun size are all significantly increased.
 
Ranger30-06 said:
it should be a driving point to practice with at least 1,000 rounds of whatever you plan on trusting your life to!
Click to expand...

Fixed, IMO. 1,000 rounds will cost you ~$350 for 45 ACP. Spread over several range outings, the cost wouldn't be that bad. Being well-versed with your weapon is worth far more than $350 if it comes down to using it. I usually go through 100-150 rounds every time I go to the range...

On topic, glad he wasn't hurt and he got the job done. I'm not personally comfortable with using a mouse gun for home defense, but in this case it worked for him.
 
Interesting that the bad guy and the good guy both had .32ACP caliber guns.
 
Fixed, IMO. 1,000 rounds will cost you ~$350 for 45 ACP. Spread over several range outings, the cost wouldn't be that bad. Being well-versed with your weapon is worth far more than $350 if it comes down to using it. I usually go through 100-150 rounds every time I go to the range...
Click to expand...

Not here in Jersey! 1000 rounds of .45 will run you closer to $550 because we can't order handgun ammo online so we have to pay jacked up store prices. While yea, that would be ideal, it just doesn't work for me. I just straight out can't afford 1000 rounds of .40 S&W. I'll buy a box or two when I can, practice with 1/2 the box and stash away the rest in case I ever need it.
 
He left a single hollow-point round in the chest of a 17-year-old Cleveland youth who was later arrested for aggravated burglary
Click to expand...
Ziolkowski used a .32 cal. Beretta pistol
Click to expand...

Rimlock with short OAL semi-rimmed rounds in a Tomcat magazine, perhaps? You have to choose your ammo and magazine relationships carefully with those little .32acp guns, I know my p32 can malfunction with short rounds if the spacer isn't in.

Mr Ziolkowski got a shot off against a younger, stronger, faster criminal. The motivations of the criminal may never be known, but burgling while armed* is a dangerous task, and is surely a way to declare adulthood, this isn't a "child" regardless of age. At best, the scumbag was planning a quick burglary without any confrontation, possibly, he planned on a confrontation with a decrepit geezer and brought along his magic talisman of intimidation (+4 to all bluffing rolls) to make sure everything went smoothly, or even worse he simply planned on eliminating the pesky old guy to prevent any interference with a nice scrap metal salvage operation.




* (the least violent possible motivation I can reasonably imagine, he wasn't there to sell girl scout cookies)
 
This case doesn't change my view on calibers. All handgun rounds put a hurt on someone but some more than others.
 
Ranger30-06 said:
Not here in Jersey! 1000 rounds of .45 will run you closer to $550 because we can't order handgun ammo online so we have to pay jacked up store prices. While yea, that would be ideal, it just doesn't work for me. I just straight out can't afford 1000 rounds of .40 S&W. I'll buy a box or two when I can, practice with 1/2 the box and stash away the rest in case I ever need it.
Click to expand...

Why would you wanna live in Jersey??? :scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny: I've been to Newark - never again! lol :eek:

I'm guessing getting out of state ammo for cheap and driving it back to Jersey would be out of the picture too...
 
1) Make sure your gun is reliable with your selected ammo! Run a couple hundred rounds through it before you trust your life to it!
2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.
Click to expand...

1. Only 200 rounds? If a gun cannot make it through 1000 rounds, then it is a peice of junk.
2. Probably a fluke; all handgun rounds are ballistically not that powerful. Even the 45 ACP isn't always a fast manstopper. He lucked out.
3. The most important rule is to be practiced with the gun at hand.
4. Hit the target.

I'd like to blow the biggest hole in the threat possible. How does 5 rounds of 7.62x54R strike you, Mr. Thug?
 
Last edited:
@Ranger 30-06

It is legal to buy on-line in Jersey. Some of the bigger box discount outlets will not ship to Jersey, but enough others will that discounts can be had.
 
Mofungo said:
@Ranger 30-06

It is legal to buy on-line in Jersey. Some of the bigger box discount outlets will not ship to Jersey, but enough others will that discounts can be had.
Click to expand...
Not handgun ammo. The state records all handgun ammo purchased by NJ owners, and bypassing that system by going online will get you a knock on the door by the local sheriff and his gang. Apparently though, it's perfectly legal to go over to PA to buy ammo and bring it back. I'm pretty sure the law is to keep people under 21 from buying handgun ammo, but like most other gun laws, it's effectiveness just isn't there.
 
Ranger30-06 said:
Well a lot of people like to push the 9mm as the minimum, and others the .380, however most people will tell you to not even touch the .32's or .25's.

The other side of the spectrum says that placement is the biggest key to success. In a way, this side is a bit more right, in the sense that poking any hole through an important part of the body (heart, spine, or head) will stop it very quickly, if not instantly.

This guy managed a threat stopping shot with one .32 ACP hollow point, because he had near perfect shot placement. Muzzle velocity, energy, and expansion were relatively irrelevant and completely trumped because of an excellent shot. If you can hit where you want to even under stress, the .32 you threw in your pocket beats the 9mm you couldn't fit under the coat so you left it in the car. Practice, practice, practice!


A couple additional key points/questions that I think can be pulled out of this are:
1) Mouse guns still have there place
2) Little calibers still poke unwanted holes in the bad guy
3) How much would have a bigger caliber helped in an identical situation? One shot of .380? 9mm? 45? Heck how about one shot of .357 or .44 mag? All of these come at big costs! (I'm not using this as an excuse for bigger is better, but it should be a driving point to practice with at least 100 rounds of whatever you plan on trusting your life to!) Recoil, gun weight, cost to practice (in the larger calibers at least), and gun size are all significantly increased.
Click to expand...

A 32 worked. This time. 32s work. Sometimes. Larger calibers work a larger percentage of the time, so I'll take the largest I can shoot straight, which is a lot bigger than a 32 ACP.

BTW, the argument "the .32 you threw in your pocket beats the 9mm you couldn't fit" doesn't fit in this situation, the shooter was at home.
 
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