Micro 9mm gun idea

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sawdeanz

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I was doodling in class today and thought of an idea. It reminded me of a thread I saw on here, (but can't find anymore) about whether 9mm pistols could possibly get physically smaller than they are now.

How about this? Make a polymer framed sub-compact based on the HK P7 gas action, for the lowest possible barrel axis and fixed barrel accuracy. Then put the recoil spring around the barrel (think makarov design) and move the gas port in front of trigger instead of between the trigger and barrel for an even lower axis. It will be a low as you can be short of getting one of those competition pistols with the mag out front.

Next make it a slide in frame design like a CZ so you have more surface areas for your hands and to make it impossible to rack the slide :cool:

But hey, for a carry piece, who cares if it heats up? Modern polymers should protect against heat well enough. You can throw in a squeeze-cocker if you want, but that's not necessary to the design.

In other words why can't they remake a p7 into a subcompact with a polymer frame? The patents have got to be expired on them by now, so how come noone is making new ones? Would the design work with polymer? Am I missing something? Why bother you ask? Because the tilting barrel design will always require vertical space, and everyone loves fixed barrels. (although I have an idea for the tilting barrel design too ;) )


P.S. If you all really want a sketch i'll try redrawing it so you don't have to see my history of violence in america notes (I'm serious, how ironic is that?)
 
sawdeanz said:
How about this? Make a polymer framed sub-compact based on the HK P7 gas action, for the lowest possible barrel axis and fixed barrel accuracy. Then put the recoil spring around the barrel (think makarov design) and move the gas port in front of trigger instead of between the trigger and barrel for an even lower axis.
Click to expand...

Have you you ever had a P7 apart?
 
To make diminutive guns, they need to be kept simple. It's really ony been in recent years on account of better metallurgy that locked breech has found it's way into the micro guns. But a gas system? No matter what you do, it adds bulk and weight to a handgun. It's also not necessary, save for big boomers like the Desert Eagle; Short recoil designs chambered in .50 AE (LAR Grizzly MK V, AMT Automag V) have ridiculous recoil springs.

The Rorbaugh R9 is the practical limit on dimensions, and the PF-9 is it for weight, with the Kahr PM9 being the best combination of small/light/reliable (smaller than PF-9, more reliable than R9, barely heavier than either). Get smaller than the Rorbaugh, you have functional problems and lighter than the 12 ounce PF9, no one will want to shoot it.

How many people like the idea of the 11.3 ounce S&W 340 PD .357 magnum but are unwilling to fire it more than once? I know quite a few. Guns that hurt people don't get practiced with.
 
sawdeanz said:
Nope, just sort of a thought experiment. So is a polymer p7 out of the question
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Pretty much. The heat from the gas has to go someplace. The metal frame on a P7 acts as a heat sink and doesn't take much shooting to get it hot enough to blister.

..also, the recoil spring is already around the barrel.

Early%2882%29P7broch-2.jpg
 
Hmmp, well u learn something new. I was looking at some diagram and got the spring mixed up wiith the plunger thing. I still say they gotta make start making them again, as much as I want one I don't want to spend $800 on a used shooter, at least not at this point in life
 
MachIVshooter said:
But a gas system? No matter what you do, it adds bulk and weight to a handgun.
Click to expand...

Actually the P7 has a gas delayed blowback action where the gas pressure keeps the slide closed. It's a lot lighter and simpler than pretty much anything else.

I think a subcompact using the same system would be a great idea.
 
sawdeanz said:
Hmmp, well u learn something new. I was looking at some diagram and got the spring mixed up wiith the plunger thing. I still say they gotta make start making them again, as much as I want one I don't want to spend $800 on a used shooter, at least not at this point in life
Click to expand...

I have...well, more than one P7, and I have never paid more than $650 OTD for one. The recent flood of German police surplus P7s has made them much more affordable than ever before, and there are still good deals out there if you are diligent. I could tell by your first post that you have no experience with the P7, but if you ever shoot one--and you should(!)--you will understand two things: one, the P7 is wonderfully compact as it is (even if it is not particularly light, it is very well balanced), and: two, even $800 for a used one is not a bad price to pay for one of the finest pistols ever built.
 
Um, the gas systems mean they are a bit touchy about barrel length.
the P7 has heat issues, dump a mag and well there's issues
make it smaller, well........
 
How "micro" are we talking about? Don't forget that a human still has to hold and shoot it. For example, the "fleaweight" .357 Magnum revolver (more power in a smaller package and all that) sounds great ... until you actually shoot it. :uhoh:
 
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Actually the P7 has a gas delayed blowback action where the gas pressure keeps the slide closed. It's a lot lighter and simpler than pretty much anything else.
Click to expand...

I know, and it's still a gas system. I didn't specify a type. And I'd have to see the HK's barrel, recoil spring, guide rod, gas chamber, locking block and roller on a scale alongside the barrel, spring and rod (if present) of a short recoil design of the same length before I buy that it's lighter. It's certainly not simpler.
 
MachIVshooter said:
I'd have to see the HK's barrel, recoil spring, guide rod, gas chamber, locking block and roller on a scale alongside the barrel, spring and rod (if present) of a short recoil design of the same length before I buy that it's lighter. It's certainly not simpler.
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The HK P7 doesn't have a guide rod, locking block or roller. Here is mine field stripped next to a 1911:

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I mean I used to think the p7 was small till I saw one in person. In that picture its not much smaller than the 1911. But I feel like the design has pocket pistol potential.
 
Saw, also look up the cz52. It has a roller locking system that is as compact as the p7 but should be more reliable in a short barrel.
 
The Micro Desert Eagle uses a gas retarded blowback action. Two gas ports angle up from the mouth of the chamber and direct gases against the front edge of the ejection port to retard slide movement. It's a pretty ingenious design and it works.
 
The HK P7 doesn't have a guide rod, locking block or roller.
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What would you call those pieces still attached to the front of the slide, then?

The Micro Desert Eagle uses a gas retarded blowback action. Two gas ports angle up from the mouth of the chamber and direct gases against the front edge of the ejection port to retard slide movement. It's a pretty ingenious design and it works.
Click to expand...

They're also very snappy little pistols, much more unpleasant to fire than the far lighter weight short recoil P3AT.
 
The smallest of the P7s was the multicalibler K3. Still, no where as small as the 9mm mouse guns.
 
sawdeanz said:
I mean I used to think the p7 was small till I saw one in person. In that picture its not much smaller than the 1911.
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They are pretty small.

A P7 is about 2 inches shorter in length,half an inch in height and around 3/4 of a pound lighter than a 1911.

Loosing the sqeeze cocker function and going to an old style fully cocked striker and sizing the grip to match a shorter magazine would make it tiny.
 
Which has an incorporated locking block and a pin that acts as a roller for the block to cam on. They cannot be excluded from the operating system.
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There is no locking block and no camming. The gas piston is simply hinged to aid assembly.

The P7 uses gas pressure to keep the slide in battery, not to "unlock" it.
 
Sam Cade said:
They are pretty small.

A P7 is about 2 inches shorter in length,half an inch in height and around 3/4 of a pound lighter than a 1911.

Loosing the sqeeze cocker function and going to an old style fully cocked striker and sizing the grip to match a shorter magazine would make it tiny.
Click to expand...
That's what I'm getting at, I feel like the mechanism is compact and has a low axis, but the other parts of the gun make it too big to be a subcompact. It's compact like a G19 is compact.

Fatcat: I will look into the cz52 also, although I've never understood how the roller locking system works, does anyone have a link to a good explanation of it? Is that like the roller systems on their rifles?

And yes I understand that "micro" is not really fun to shoot, but there is a market out their obviously, and it was kind of a thought experiment based on whether we have reached the apex of handgun technology etc.
 
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