CCW gun too accurate?

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M-Cameron

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first let me start off by saying that i am just thinking out loud, and am not preaching anything here, so bear that in mind before you post.


so i was at the range the other day, shooting one of my CCW weapons( Radom P64)......and i got some surprisingly accurate results, all of my shots were landing more or less right on top of eachother

now at first i was quite pleased....but then on the ride home i got to thinking, what if I was forced to use my weapon, and what if i did get similar performance in that situation......

you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.

so i got to thinking that it might be better to have a less accurate gun, which would pattern my shots over more of the target, rather than through the same hole.


now obviously this isnt taking into account shooting under stress, and obviously you are never going to shoot as well in an actual encounter as you would target shooting.........

but am i on to something, or have i just taken one to many hits to the head?
 

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I'm going with your 'too many hits to the head' theory. Unless you are the Terminator, you are going to be all over the place when shooting under stress. Even a stone-cold veteran operator isn't going to be stacking bullets in a wound channel- remember, even if you aren't moving, your target will be.
 
Nice groups, and no way would I want to play the accuracy lottery just to have the potential for more wound channels. What about that first shot..even close it ain't easy under stress. If you're worried about numbers of wound channels simply aim at different spots or get a shotgun.

Way to shoot, and provocative question.
 
Posted by M-Cameron: ....all of my shots were landing more or less right on top of eachother... what if I was forced to use my weapon, and what if i did get similar performance in that situation....you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all....so i was got to thinking that it might be better to have a less accurate gun, which would pattern my shots over more of the target, rather than through the same hole.
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If you train the way you practice at the range, your problem is more likely to be one of being taken out before you can get off a shot. If you are shooting slowly enough to get most of your shots in the same hole, you are most likely not shooting fast enough to react effectively in a self defense situation. A violent criminal actor who forces you to shoot in self defense will not be standing still. You will have NO CHANCE of putting all of your shots through the same wound channel.

Look in ST&T for some sources of training, and avail yourself of it.

In the interim, find a rang where rapid fire is permitted, shoot as fast as you can while keeping all of your shots on a paper pie plate at seven yards, and keep working on increasing your speed.
 
When people get shot at they tend to move. If they get hit they tend to move. No way will you hit the same spot twice unless he is dead. Real fights are dynamic.
 
The target is moving. You are moving. If you DO get two hits, good for you, most people don't. They won't be in the same spot and if they are, start playing the lottery and talking to women in bars! :)
 
I'm with Kleanbore. If you can put two shots on top of each other like that, you aren't shooting fast enough to actually be training for a defensive encounter.

If my double-taps are under 3" inside of 10 yards during self-defense drills, I know that I am taking too long between shots (unless I get lucky).
 
Chopdoktor said:
I'm going with your 'too many hits to the head' theory. Unless you are the Terminator, you are going to be all over the place when shooting under stress. Even a stone-cold veteran operator isn't going to be stacking bullets in a wound channel- remember, even if you aren't moving, your target will be.
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That and the target will be in 3 dimension and not just 2 as in a piece of paper. Even if the entrance wound is the same, odds are the wound channel will be different because of even the slightest amount of angle change.
 
If you can duplicate your range performance under "combat" conditions, I'll kiss your a** on national TV and give you six weeks to raise the crowd !

IMNSHO, "range performance" and "real world, when bullets are hitting near you and you're scared, (most likely to have defecated/pissed yourself), and its dark and unfamiliar with your adrenaline up to max, isn't going to happen ! >MW
 
What I'm thinking is "Am I training to kill some one." Its what a lawyer will ask at a hearing.
If I just "spray and pray" as you see on the news every day would I be OK as a panicked citizen?
I asked a cop friend of mine and he said "Empty your gun like you were scared to death and shooting at anything." After you kill the scumbag!
 
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There's a very important balance in "practical" defensive type shooting. You want to place every shot exactly where you intend it to go. However, generally an "ok" shot FAST (especially 2, 3, six, etc. "ok" shots) is much better than a "perfect" shot eventually. If every shot is a perfect hit, you're going WAAAAAY too slow. Your skill level is wherever that balance is between acceptable accuracy and speed.

Gun games are not gun fights and competition is not training, however some of the systems of scoring that are used by sports like USPSA and IDPA can give you cues about how to evaluate your practical shooting ability. They are all scored based on time, with deductions for shots that fall outside of a fairly broad hit zone. (Anything inside an 8" circle is a perfect "Down Zero" shot in IDPA.)

If you're accurate, work on FAST. If you push so hard you begin to lose shots into the periphery of a defensive target, there's the edge of your skill. Work on improving speed without sacrificing much accuracy.
 
Yes I am training to defend myself and all the others.That's why I go to the range as much as I can. You must have missed the part about killing the scumbag.
 
I see guys practicing at 5-10 yds at the club all the time. They are all wayyyy to methodical trying to shoot 2'' groups.
Practicing fundementals is fine, but at some point you have to shoot for speed and accuracy.
Good luck, keep shooting!
 
What I'm thinking is "Am I training to kill some one." Its what a lawyer will ask at a hearing.
If I just "spray and pray" as you see on the news every day would I be OK as a panicked citizen?
I asked a cop friend of mine and he said "Empty your gun like you were scared to death and shooting at anything." After you kill the scumbag!
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Dumping your mag into the surroundings after the threat has ceased is not a sound strategy for successfully negotiating the investigation and possible trial.

I do understand that there are police officers who make ... inadvisable ... statements frequently. He who gets legal and/or self-defense advice from a law enforcement officer might as well seek the same in fortune cookies.
 
Tight grouping tells you that you and the gun (mostly you) are consistent in placing your shots where you want them to go. :) Use these abilities to your advantage. For example, increased accuracy might make the difference between scoring or missing with a critical shot. Many people struggle to keep any shots on the target.

you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.
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I don't entirely buy into this. First, it is unlikely that your shot is going to go through the exact same hole. Second, there is nothing wrong with multiple hits in a vital organ such as the heart. To use an analogy, consider that the devastating wounds inflicted by shotguns are an effect of the pellets being closer together. This is why you see extra-tight-patterning chokes in specialized turkey shotguns, for example.
 
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you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.
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Stationary paper POI isn't going to be the same as moving target POI so you don't have to worry about it.
 
banek said:
... If I just "spray and pray" as you see on the news every day would I be OK as a panicked citizen?
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Not necessarily. A CWP holder in PA was convicted of reckless endangerment after returning fire and sending a bullet through the window of a daycare center. He was sentenced to 1-2 years. Can't find anything on his appeal. Also, he may not have been a choir boy, and the circumstances leading up to the shootout were questionable.
 
you would have one shot, and then each subsequent shot would go through the same wound channel as the first, not really causing much more damage at all.
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he's probably going to be wearing kevlar, and ive seen ballistics testing on body armor where the vest would stop a single round, but repeated impacts to the same point result in the armor failing , even to lower powered rounds.

armed with this information, if he stands still enough for you to hit the exact same spot it should work to your advantage.
 
This thread is a perfect example of how thinking too much can get you into trouble.
 
I doubt you'll be stacking them all in the same hole when you're trying to hit a moving target with someone shooting back at you.

...but, you find you actually ARE putting them all in the same hole in a self-defense encounter, then try shooting a little faster. Once you get up around 5 or 6 shots a second your groups will open up a little bit--I promise! ;)
 
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