Did they overreact?

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EvilGenius

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My gf is a level 4 comissioned security officer for a local security company. She's one of the "watch commanders" that basically drives around to the different locations and makes sure everyone is doing what they're supposed to and respond to any situations.

Today she had stopped by a location and one of their personnel was fiddling with his car which apparently was giving him trouble on the way to work. They joked around a bit and one of the other personnel (also a level 4) decided to draw his pistol and aim it at the car's engine (and close enough to the guy under the hood to say that it was essentially aimed at him as well) with finger on trigger and made a joke about "I know how to fix this." She immediately jumped on him to holster his weapon, which he did begrudgingly. They had a few awkward moments then she decided to take him to his next post in the security car and then let him know in no uncertain terms that he'd better not ever unholster his weapon again without a good reason and if he does in her presence it'd be hard pressed for her not to arrest him on the spot (shes also a deputy constable). He came back some bs about he was in the military before this job, etc. She decided to let it go at the moment and reported it to the ops manager on the way to her next site. The ops manager decided to call the guy in off post to the main office where they both dressed him down and she wrote him up. He again tried to argue about how stupid this was because in the military they wouldnt care to which she responded that they dont care about his military experience. He is no longer a military member and therefore a civilian and bound by civilian laws. He responded with a big ole "Well F*ck you!" to everyone in the office on his way out then proceeded to text everyone else he knew in the company about what theyre trying to do to him. Word is from the big wig he's being sacked tomorrow due to his conduct.

I think he definitely got himself fired with the last bit, but did they overreact at first?
 
No... Not one bit... he's a civilian, and in most any circumstances, pulling your gun out is brandishing, let alone the fact that it's completely unsafe to point your gun, finger-on-trigger, at another human being.

Had he apologized and took his yelling-at humbly, they probably wouldn't have cared enough to fire him.
 
If those are the facts - the bro's gotta go! I would say having this as documented as possible is in order as well. He certainly sounds like a possible CNN update at some time in his future.
 
It doesn't matter. Civilian, security officer, contract employee or sworn officer, you never remove your weapon from the holster without a valid reason. Sworn officers have a little more discretion when performing a high risk stop or entering a potentially deadly situation, however, pointing a weapon when deadly force is not justified can cost you your job and certification.
 
There certainly was an overreaction, but it was the idiot who thought he was being funny. Sounds like it would have been a non-issue if he'd just reholstered the weapon and apologized for the judgement lapse. But he took it to a whole 'nother level, and that cost him his job. And that's a good thing, IMO. Don't need a loose screw with a short fuse like him as an armed security guard.
 
In my opinion, your girlfriend didn't over react, in fact, I think she UNDER reacted. Had it been me, I would have relieved him of his firearm and his job right there on the spot! Keep your bugger hooker off the damn bang switch PERIOD!! Joking around is all well and fine, until a live firearm is unholstered. I am assuming of course that it was a live firearm considering carrying around an unloaded firearm on a security job would be a bit pointless. Call me a hardass or whatever, but I think she went a little soft on the fella until he became insulting. So the hell what if the moron was in the military before hand. That action right there just proves the point that just because you were in Law enforcement or Military doesn't make you safer to carry a damn firearm. His actions were unsafe a flat out stupid.
 
I'm an unarmed guard in CT, and my company is international. They have VERY clear use of force policies, in this job they make things pretty clear where the company stands.

I'm sure an armed company is just as clear, and I get a distinct feeling that the policy makes it clear in no uncertain terms that a sidearm is not to leave the holster unless life is threatened.

Policy aside, it was just frankly a stupid thing to do. We all know the four rules, from what you wrote he broke all of them. He knew the gun was loaded, but didn't treat it as such. He pointed it at something he didn't actually want to shoot. He had his finger on the trigger. And he either willfully wasn't aware of what was beyond the target, or didn't care. It was a small distance from a guard with a bullet in them. He screwed up big, and then on top of it didn't own up to it. Sounds like he more than deserves to be fired.
 
If someone does something unsafe, it is necessary to correct the behavior. The more serious the safety violation, the more serious and immediate the response. Committing a safety violation of this nature - placing another person's life in danger - merits the most serious and immediate response.

If I were in charge, my inclination would have been to terminate his employment for drawing his weapon and placing another person's life in danger. It would have taken some serious apologizing coupled with him having a clear understanding of how negligent he had been in order for him to keep his job. IOW, he would have to explain why I shouldn't fire his sorry posterior, and it had better be a good explanation.

He appears not to have understood the implications of his actions, which is my book is enough to terminate him, and his unprofessional behavior after the incident only serves to confirm the decision.
 
I would have let it go "one" time with a severe warning.
I may also have made him attend some remedial weapons handling training too, and pulled him from the schedule until completed.

If he had just taken the rear end chewing like a man, then the situation would not have been as bad.

I agree though, once he blew his top over it, then that changes things.
It demonstrates a low level of maturity already on top of the initial immature act itself; as well as the lack of ability to keep his emotions in check.
None of those things are a good fit in a person hired to be professional, as well as armed.
 
Good to see we're all on the same side.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:
In my opinion, your girlfriend didn't over react, in fact, I think she UNDER reacted. Had it been me, I would have relieved him of his firearm and his job right there on the spot! Keep your bugger hooker off the damn bang switch PERIOD!! Joking around is all well and fine, until a live firearm is unholstered. I am assuming of course that it was a live firearm considering carrying around an unloaded firearm on a security job would be a bit pointless. Call me a hardass or whatever, but I think she went a little soft on the fella until he became insulting. So the hell what if the moron was in the military before hand. That action right there just proves the point that just because you were in Law enforcement or Military doesn't make you safer to carry a damn firearm. His actions were unsafe a flat out stupid.
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We agree, but she doesnt have the authority to fire on the spot like that, only with the OK from the ops manager who'd be handling the termination paperwork anyways.

She decided it would only escalate the situation to try and disarm him then and there after he'd already reholstered the weapon upon orders. And she being the only other armed person there at the time figured it'd be too risky if he got extra uppity about it, which it sounds like a possibility.
 
Just to stir things up (cuz that's what I do)

He's being fired for blowing up back at the office, not for drawing his weapon and recklessly endangering the mechanic with it? Implies that the bosses' feelings are more important that the lives of the lowly workers.

They might want to rethink this, even though the outcome is the same.
 
He again tried to argue about how stupid this was because in the military they wouldnt care
Click to expand...

Picture him doing the same thing in the motor pool on a military base........if he thinks nobody would have cared, he is delusional, or lying about ever having been in the military........

Guy sounds like a complete loose cannon.
 
zxcvbob said:
Just to stir things up (cuz that's what I do)

He's being fired for blowing up back at the office, not for drawing his weapon and recklessly endangering the mechanic with it? Implies that the bosses' feelings are more important that the lives of the lowly workers.

They might want to rethink this, even though the outcome is the same.
Click to expand...

Well at the very least he was being written up, they had yet to decide if any further action was going to be needed until he made it for them before the meeting was over.
 
zxcvbob said:
Just to stir things up (cuz that's what I do)

He's being fired for blowing up back at the office, not for drawing his weapon and recklessly endangering the mechanic with it? Implies that the bosses' feelings are more important that the lives of the lowly workers.

They might want to rethink this, even though the outcome is the same.
Click to expand...

Without actually knowing this guy, it's tough to say I think.
I mean, people do dumb stuff.
Since the military was brought up in this thread, just as an example....
If a Private does something stupid with a weapon, you don't just throw him out of the service immediately.
But corrective training is a MUST.

Maybe the boss felt the guy did deserve a second chance and would have given him one...if...he hadn't just made matters worse instead by acting like a clown?

I'm not defending the initial act of stupidity at all.
So don't get me wrong here.

I'm just saying that "sometimes" a person can be salvaged, and actually become an outstanding employee if granted a "single" second chance to redeem themselves.
Ya just never know.

This guy however...just blew it completely.
I would have fired him too at that point.
 
Sabboth, I am a firm believer in second chances as many of my employees can attest. But acts such as that as well as his attitude and comments, AT THE SCENE, not at the office would have led to his immediate dismissal by me. The second he opened his mouth to me after doing something so unbelievably stupid would have ended any and all chances. Had he manned up and apologized right there on the spot I MAY have rethought the incident and allowed him to make up for the stupidity. But he chose to be a smartass and act like breaking a SERIOUS rule in firearm safety was "no big deal" and that would have gotten him an immediate pink slip from me and quite possibly a foot in the rear.

We agree, but she doesnt have the authority to fire on the spot like that, only with the OK from the ops manager who'd be handling the termination paperwork anyways.

She decided it would only escalate the situation to try and disarm him then and there after he'd already reholstered the weapon upon orders. And she being the only other armed person there at the time figured it'd be too risky if he got extra uppity about it, which it sounds like a possibility.
__________________
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In that case EvilGenius, I 100% agree whole heartedly in how she handled the situation. I was under the impression she was indeed tasked with the authority if relieving him immediately. Being that she wasn't, she did fine. The guy was a grade A, number 1, complete, and total moron and got what he deserved. Cudo's to the wife!!
 
Whose military was he in?

In any branch of the U.S. Military such an act would have gotten him an Article 15 or Captain's Mast darned quick. Not only for the horseplay with a gun but for the repeated insubordination. And it wouldn't matter if it was in-theater or not. Of course, the military may have changed since I got out, but I doubt it could change THAT much.

SabbathWolf said it well. People in a position of authority or charged with enforcing rules MUST have good judgement, and doubly so if armed.

Lost Sheep
 
No. Guns are not toys and pointing a loaded gun is never a joke IMO. However, for some, I think it's a hard transition from active military to a comparatively mundane civilian life.
 
Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:
Sabboth, I am a firm believer in second chances as many of my employees can attest. But acts such as that as well as his attitude and comments, AT THE SCENE, not at the office would have led to his immediate dismissal by me. The second he opened his mouth to me after doing something so unbelievably stupid would have ended any and all chances. Had he manned up and apologized right there on the spot I MAY have rethought the incident and allowed him to make up for the stupidity. But he chose to be a smartass and act like breaking a SERIOUS rule in firearm safety was "no big deal" and that would have gotten him an immediate pink slip from me and quite possibly a foot in the rear.
Click to expand...

Yes. You're correct.
That's what I said too I think.
The guy's mouth and attitude got him fired.
I agree with you.
He had it coming for certain.

I said I could have forgiven the "initial" act of dumbness, and subjected him to some additional training while also pulling him off the clock.
But once he went all mouthy and stupid too...then it's over.
Agreed.
I think we are actually saying pretty close to the same thing maybe.
 
zxcvbob said:
Just to stir things up (cuz that's what I do)

He's being fired for blowing up back at the office, not for drawing his weapon and recklessly endangering the mechanic with it? Implies that the bosses' feelings are more important that the lives of the lowly workers.

They might want to rethink this, even though the outcome is the same.
Click to expand...
I would phrase it differently.

He was corrected at the scene for mishandling his firearm.

He was reprimanded for resisting the correction, perhaps at the scene or in the transport to his next duty post.

He (in my opinion) made it worse with his "I am ex-military and know better than you (my employer) what I am entitled and authorized to do with deadly force that belongs to and is indemnified by my employer." attitude. This might have been curable with counseling depending on his (now dubious) mental state.

He was fired (again, my opinion, as my best guess) for his public display of disrespect, insolence and insubordination towards the company, which is sufficient in most places to defend against a claim of improper termination.

We only have one side of the story here, so be cautious about the conclusions to which we jump. All mine (but the last one) are depend on other facts or assertions being in harmony with the OP. But I don't see how publicly disrespecting my company is in any way acceptable.

Lost Sheep
 
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