New, sub-par firearms from online retailers?

peacebutready · May 8, 2012

Howdy all,

Within the past 2 years I bought 2 1911's from a large known online retailer who mails to a FFL of your choice. Both of these 1911's of different brands are having problems and will need either the warranty to be used or worked on by a gunsmith.

I read in a post somewhere a fellow who bought a faulty rifle from this same retailer thought maybe this retailer gets the bulk of problem guns from manufacturers because the customers can't send it back to them unless you refuse to accept it from the FFL.

Is the above possible? I ask because I wish to purchase a new firearm but I'm concerned it is more likely I get a problem gun from this retailer than a different retailer.

If anyone knows of an online retailer who is unlikely to buy (from the manufacturer) and sell a bad gun, I'd certainly appreciate the referral.

If the model I'm considering is purchased from a LGS, will the LGS send it back on their dime if need be? This particular manufacturer requires the customer to ship it back on their dime. Thanks.

Happy Shooting!

mnrivrat · May 8, 2012

I don't think there is anything called seconds in the firearms industry.

The same holds true for large contract buyers like Wal-Mart .

They (the manufacturers) )do not make special cheap guns,or seconds type products to sell. At least not on purpose.

Remllez · May 8, 2012

Not likely, someones a** is responsible in the end and knowingly selling a defective firearm would make them a sitting duck!! There aren't two sets of manufacturing plans, one for sub-par guns and one for full price guns.

Defective guns are fixed, scrapped or destroyed. Any other option is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Gun manufacturers simply can't afford to knowingly sell defective designs, one such incident could cost the company potential bankruptcy from lawsuits.

gfpd707 · May 8, 2012

Exactly. Question answered close the thread.

Bubbles · May 8, 2012

Exactly. Question answered close the thread.

Not even close.

First, with the high demand QC is taking a hit, and a lot more "dogs" are hitting the street than normal.

Second, distributors and retailers don't test-fire guns. A "NIB" gun can pass through several FFL's before you purchase it. If you have a warranty issue you need to deal with the manufacturer or one of their approved repair shops, otherwise you risk voiding any warranty.

Davidson's (a distributor) does have a policy where if the retailer purchases from them and there is a problem with the gun, you can return the faulty gun to them and they will replace it.

sansone · May 8, 2012

your local FFL buys from a wholesale distributor not the manufacturer. Some distributors will take a gun back and replace it. Online retailers usually state the return policy somewhere on the website, call them and ask, if you don't like what they say, buy local

drsfmd · May 8, 2012

sansone said:
your local FFL buys from a wholesale distributor not the manufacturer.

Maybe YOUR'S does, but most shops get at least some of their brands direct... they pay dealers fees and get discounts in exchange.

Of course, you don't buy one at a time direct, you buy 20, 50, 100 or some pre-determined amount of money's worth.

CZguy · May 8, 2012

New, sub-par firearms from online retailers?

That's how rumors get started.

It's a legitimate concern, but not true. If you are concerned about receiving a new firearm that's defective, then buy from your LGS. In the event of a problem they will mail it back for you.

medalguy · May 8, 2012

Certainly. Can you imagine the negative press they would have if lots of people started posting on the forums that "My Smith & Colt Arsenal automatic revolver that I bought from Joe's gun Shop is a piece of junk, and seven of my best buddies have the same problem with the same gun." What would that kind of negativity take to overcome? How many full-page ads in The American Rifleman or Field & Stream? No way they purposely release any kind of defective gun.

I've never had occasion to use the warranty on a gun, but I'd wager that just about all warranty problems will have to be fixed/replaced by the manufacturer. Distributors are resellers, not usually repair stations.

peacebutready · May 9, 2012

Response

CZguy:

I wouldn't want to start an unjust or unsubstantiated rumor, that's why I was careful not to name the manufacturers of the 1911's or the online retailer.

medalguy:

Judging from forums, I've wondered if one my firearm models became known to the manufacturer as defective after they released them but didn't do a recall or work more with the consumer. A lot of people have really slammed this manufacturer. Now I have to do some research into the "implied warranties" of my state before sending it in. I'm going to demand a refund, new one, or other model that is reliable and pay the difference.

TennJed · May 9, 2012

How would they even handle getting the defective guns to the online stores? Are NIB guns even tested enough at the factory to seperate the "good" from the "bad"?

The only other option would be the gun companies knowingly passing along "returned" and damaged good to a store as new. That is treading into tin foil hat territory. Can't imagine a gun company doing that, and not even from a ethical standpoint. As mentioned above the lawsuits and trying to keep it unknown would make it hard to do

MedWheeler · May 9, 2012

I had the same discussion with my wife regarding purchasing a flat-panel TV from Wal-Mart. She told me she had heard that Wal-Mart sells sub-standard models made specifically by the manufacturers for them. I told her that there is no way a major-name maker is going to put its name on a product intentionally made to be of less-than-expected quality. I told her that if someone buys a Sony TV from Wal-Mart and it turns out to be junk, they're not going to go around bad-mouthing Wal-Mart; they're going to bad-mouth and swear off Sony.
So, no. I don't believe there are any gun makers producing intentionally-inferior products for specific retailers, at least, not and still putting their names on them.

peacebutready · May 9, 2012

TennJed said:
How would they even handle getting the defective guns to the online stores? Are NIB guns even tested enough at the factory to seperate the "good" from the "bad"?

The manufacturer wouldn't need to have them sent to the online stores. They could just pick up the shipping charges from the consumer to the factory, then fix or replace them.

peacebutready · May 9, 2012

MedWheeler said:
I had the same discussion with my wife regarding purchasing a flat-panel TV from Wal-Mart. She told me she had heard that Wal-Mart sells sub-standard models made specifically by the manufacturers for them. I told her that there is no way a major-name maker is going to put its name on a product intentionally made to be of less-than-expected quality. I told her that if someone buys a Sony TV from Wal-Mart and it turns out to be junk, they're not going to go around bad-mouthing Wal-Mart; they're going to bad-mouth and swear off Sony.
So, no. I don't believe there are any gun makers producing intentionally-inferior products for specific retailers, at least, not and still putting their names on them.

I think Walmart sells TV model brands that aren't well known like Sony, Panasonic, etc. Maybe she was referring to those relatively unknown brands that don't intentionally make bad TV's, they're just not as good as the more known brands.

hardluk1 · May 9, 2012

peacebutready Question, If you were informed ahead of time the pistol was not of high quality why did you buy it. Say's that contact the company that made it or impoerted it . Most all will send a shipping label to have it picked up for you to drop off at a mail box store. Write a letter about your issues with it and put it in the box. Give the company a chance to correct it problem.

peacebutready · May 9, 2012

hardluk1 said:
peacebutready Question, If you were informed ahead of time the pistol was not of high quality why did you buy it. Say's that contact the company that made it or impoerted it . Most all will send a shipping label to have it picked up for you to drop off at a mail box store. Write a letter about your issues with it and put it in the box. Give the company a chance to correct it problem.

I didn't know ahead of time this brand and model had problems. It got good and very good reviews. Then there were substantial changes going on with the factory and company I didn't know about. It appears there are a lot of lemons from that general time period. I called a while back and was told I had to pay shipping. I didn't know anything about pistol shipping at that time. Customer service with the factory (can't be shipped back to the 'net store) told me I would have to pay shipping and it would cost $60-$100 dollars. Since then I located a FFL who will ship it for $25 plus actual USPS shipping costs. Shipping it back may not take care of it because there are a lot of stories about their models still having problems when the customer gets them back.

Since this model has "implied" but not "express" state warranties, along with the federal Magnusson Act, I'll have to do some research when writing the letter to demand a refund, a replacement, a different model plus money from me if they still haven't worked the kinks out of my model, or just replacing the problem part (ex: slide, barrel with out of spec lugs, etc.)

The company for the other one will pick up shipping.

JustinJ · May 9, 2012

There is no question that walmart makes large deals with manufacturers for prices well below what they sell to most retailers. People have been experiencing this with walmart sold ammo for some time.

The idea that making a gun to a lower standard opens a manufacturer up to suit is not true unless they took some blatant short cut to make the gun unreasonably unsafe. There are plenty of ways to take shortcuts that make a gun lower quality without making it necessarily unsafe in the normal sense.

needmorecowbell · May 9, 2012

Welcome to the world of Parts Per Million or what those who work in QC call "PPM". This is how many QC issues per million units sold. Bottom line is the more you sell the more # of problems will be reported. A large online retailer is going to have more quality issues reported on forums like this because they sell a lot more guns than an LGS. Doesn't mean they're any worse. % wise probably about the same. Same holds true for gun mfrs. who sell a lot of guns.

joecil · May 9, 2012

Yes but Walmart also sold RWS probably one of the best made factory ammo on the market which they could give away here in Kentucky. I bought a 1000 rounds for about $10.50 per 50 round box so they could get rid of it. Now we are talking about the 124 gr 9mm FMJ stuff that was as good as any where else I bought it however have had problems with Remington, Winchester White Box and Federal I bought through them. I have stopped buying ammo from Walmart however own 3 TV's I bought from them, 2 Visio's and a Hisence and all 3 have worked great with great pictures up to 1080 P in HD with no problems. I might add all 3 have the best picture quality I ever had over the name brands with all the features. So really don't know how they do it but do know they cut big deals with many manufacturers for various products such as jeans which I won't buy from them.

Teachu2 · May 9, 2012

I had the same discussion with my wife regarding purchasing a flat-panel TV from Wal-Mart. She told me she had heard that Wal-Mart sells sub-standard models made specifically by the manufacturers for them. I told her that there is no way a major-name maker is going to put its name on a product intentionally made to be of less-than-expected quality. I told her that if someone buys a Sony TV from Wal-Mart and it turns out to be junk, they're not going to go around bad-mouthing Wal-Mart; they're going to bad-mouth and swear off Sony.

Actually, having spent a dozen years making a fine living selling Sony consumer electronics, this is a bad example. Sony (as well as nearly all consumer electronics manufacturers) produce "derivative" models of most of their product lines for major chains and buying groups. Sometimes it's only a model # change (so they don't have to price-protect under their price guarantee policies), sometimes it's a different remote, or a different jack pack for inputs, or +/- a particular filter or feature. Many times it's what factory/country it was assembled in! I've seen as many as nine derivative models of a popular TV. Then you get into identical products with different companies - Panasonic/Quasar/Magnavox camcorders were all the same except for the stickers - and the costs!

Even with all that, they NEVER sold "seconds" as first-quality. They were "Factory-Refurbished", and clearly marked as such.

MAKster · May 10, 2012

I think you are far more likely to get a gun with a blemish when you buy online. If you are buying in a store and the gun has a cosmetic problem with the bluing or wood you are unlikely to buy it. The gun might sit on the shelf for months because no one wants to buy a NIB gun with a blemish. A dealer can sell the gun to someone online and the buyer might be upset but its unlikely they are going to try to make the seller take it back because of all the hassle involved in shipping it back.

New, sub-par firearms from online retailers?

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