Why the fuss?

PR-NJ said:

I may be missing something, but why all the outrage over the "no firearms" signs in various businesses. The signs are primarily there for tort liability reasons.

If you have a legal CCW permit, who's going to know you're carrying as long as your gun stays concealed. Discretion is the better part of valor. Or put another way, why make a stink if you don't have to.

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Not always--Many businesses are simply liberal anti-gun establishments of which IMO should be boycotted in order that they receive the message that Second Amendment restrictions=No BUSINESS!

-Cheers

In some places they carry the force of law, and violating them makes to doer unlawful. Not a good position for a responsible gun owner.

The signs are primarily there for tort liability reasons.

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What do you base that on ? And if that were true, why wouldn't most all business's put up those signs if there was that type of a concern ?

Think about it. How much sense do they make? They only stop law abiding folks from carrying. The criminal see it as a gun free zone. I make a policy to never patronize a business that has such a sign.

I see the signs as a (mistaken) response to the proliferation of "shall-issue" carry permits. Tort liability? How could that be a burden on a premises owner unless he required firearms? Any liability for accidental shootings should be on the gun carrier. What's next, no baseball bat signs? No chainsaw signs? No Lassiter Laser signs?

In some places they carry the force of law, and violating them makes to doer unlawful. Not a good position for a responsible gun owner.

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What locales are those? Not leaving when asked becomes trespassing, and you could be banned for life (resulting in trespassing if you ever enter again, gun or not), but I'm curious of locales where simple violation the first time is punishable/enforceable by the legal system.

You go through the fingerprinting, taxing, and more background checks than some police officers, in my state, but you aren't trustworthy?

If a place doesn't have the common sense and holds no trust in me, they're also not likely to hold my money.

What locales are those?

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Texas.

A properly posted sign makes it a crime to carry in a private business.

Also, in states where those signs hold the force of law, if you were ever forced to defend yourself even if you're in the right you're looking at charges. In my state your loss of CCW for 5 years.

PR-NJ said:

I may be missing something, but why all the outrage over the "no firearms" signs in various businesses. The signs are primarily there for tort liability reasons.

If you have a legal CCW permit, who's going to know you're carrying as long as your gun stays concealed. Discretion is the better part of valor. Or put another way, why make a stink if you don't have to.

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I could not have said that better.................

The signs are primarily there for tort liability reasons.

If you have a legal CCW permit, who's going to know you're carrying as long as your gun stays concealed.

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Well, there are several responses.

First, why is it permissible for a person running a store that's open to the public to sacrifice MY rights for HIS supposed tort liability? Wouldn't a better sign be: "If you enter this store legally armed, you are agreeing that I will be 'held harmless' at your expense for any and all damages and costs that may result."

Next, you seem to be implying that carrying concealed into a store that has signs against it is a big nothing. I know that people vary on this question, but if I have seen the sign and go in armed any way, I am showing the owner no respect, and I am being dishonest.

Then, you seem to imply there are no penalties involved, "as long as your gun stays concealed." But the ONLY point of having the gun in the store is that you MIGHT have to expose it to save your life. You may then be in for a lot of things: a civil suit that against you by the person you shot or drew down on, with them using your dishonesty in carrying "where prohibited" as a impeachment of character; a civil suit FROM THE OWNER for any legal costs, loss of business, damages/clean-up, mental anguish, etc.

And if you live in a may-issue state, permanent loss of CCW. Hey, maybe a prosecutor thinks he can, like the civil attorney, use your decision to carry where prohibited against you, and goes for a criminal charge--with everything (like loss of employment) that entails.

So, hey, if you know your gun is absolutely "going to stay concealed", then why bring it into the store; but if you do need it, then it won't be staying concealed--and then, depending on the circumstances, carrying where it was posted not to, could make your post-shooting legal situation much more interesting than you'd like.

The solution: get rid of those signs (ask the owner), or shop elsewhere and carry.

There is a mall where I live that is posted against CC. The hypocrasy of it all is that there is a fantasy store in it that has those bizarre skull headed, dragon, etc knives, small to large, swords-small letter opener size to claymores! But I'm not allowed to carry a gun in there:banghead:

For me it's pretty simple. A business tries to deny my rights. And then smiles at me and asks for my money.

A business posts a sign. "We do not support freedom of speech. People who have something to say are trouble makers. Please remain silent."

Could you remain silent and go in and spend your money. If you believe that the Second Amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms but you can't be troubled to respond to those who would deny it you don't deserve it.

No one is calling for noisy protests. Just speak with your wallet. If you are comfortable politely letting the business know why you are going elsewhere all the better.

No one is calling for noisy protests. Just speak with your wallet. If you are comfortable politely letting the business know why you are going elsewhere all the better.

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True, and unless you (politely!) point out to the business why you are not spending money there instead of somewhere else, they will not know, and it will not change.

I just don't want to spend money somewhere that disrespects my efforts and license, without guaranteeing my safety on their own efforts.

On the other hand, if I manage to find another gamer shop with a sign proclaiming "gaming is not our only hobby" on a used target by the register, they're getting my buck.

why all the outrage over the "no firearms" signs in various businesses

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I don't want to financially support any business that has a problem with me legally carrying my gun. I also think that if I were a crook I'd view businesses who post those signs as great potential targets.

The signs hold no weight where I live so legally I can just ignore them and carry on but I choose not to do business with these establishments solely in support of my brothers in arms so to speak that live in other states that the signs do carry the weight of the law . It's not a businesses right to deny us ours. And yes if I'm about to walk into a store that has one of those big ugly signs in the front window I enter and inform the manager/owner why they are not going to get my money and give them the opportunity to take the sign down so I can buy what I need and they can get my money. Out of the half dozen or so times I done this (signs aren't really common here) It has worked once.

What locales are those?

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Texas. A properly posted sign makes it a crime to carry in a private business.

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Interesting. So, a business can basically create "law" via signage? What if they posted, because for example the business found it disruptive, "No talking on cell phones in store"? Or, for example, "You may not enter this business with peanuts" because an employee has a fatal allergy. Are these legally enforceable crimal offenses (arrest, jail time, fine, removal of property/rights, etc.) too under this "a sign makes it a crime" Texas law? Or, does it just apply to guns? Just curios.

Are these legally enforceable crimal offenses...

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Just for guns.

And Texas isn't the only state where a business, or simply an employee working there who decides to post a sign, can 'create a law' specific to their premises.

Being Liberal doesn't guarantee an anti-gun stance. I'm really getting tired of gun rights advocates turning the issue into one of party preference. The most influential, and powerful ally a gun rights advocate can have is a Liberal gun owner. Don't alienate this important, and neccesary component in the continued fight for the RKBA.

I am a gun toting Liberal that has changed the mind of MANY friends on what the face of the American gun owner looks like. Three, previously rabidly anti-gun, have become owners themselves.

Sorry, now back to the OP's qestion. The "fuss" is about a company taking it upon themselves to eliminate the rights of the citizenry. Legal or not, the fact that they try to eliminate one's personal liberties based on fear or paranoia is fuss worthy in my opinion.

A sign that says "Please, no expressing your opinions in AMC theatre" "This is a first amendment free zone!"
"Illegal search and seizure welcomed at AMC"
all similarly offensive.

"No shirt,No shoes, No service" signs are the same difference. The owner of the store has the right to post them, for the reasonable decency and safety of their overall clientele.
If your neighbor told you not to conceal carry on his property, you would have to abide by that request or leave.
Yeah, I know you have been tested, inspected, and paid money for your permit. But it is not a "cart' blanche" over the rights of others.
You do have the right to spend your money elsewhere or not visit your neighbor if their request upset you.
I open carry in the state of Michigan, do I think that grants me an immunity from everything concerning others, not at all. You still have to practice "responsible" gun ownership by the current law's.

HGUNHNTR said:

Being Liberal doesn't guarantee an anti-gun stance. I'm really getting tired of gun rights advocates turning the issue into one of party preference. The most influential, and powerful ally a gun rights advocate can have is a Liberal gun owner. Don't alienate this important, and neccesary component in the continued fight for the RKBA.

I am a gun toting Liberal that has changed the mind of MANY friends on what the face of the American gun owner looks like. Three, previously rabidly anti-gun, have become owners themselves.

Sorry, now back to the OP's qestion. The "fuss" is about a company taking it upon themselves to eliminate the rights of the citizenry. Legal or not, the fact that they try to eliminate one's personal liberties based on fear or paranoia is fuss worthy in my opinion.

A sign that says "Please, no expressing your opinions in AMC theatre" "This is a first amendment free zone!"
"Illegal search and seizure welcomed at AMC"
all similarly offensive.

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Thanks for fighting the good fight even if you're a southpaw.

PR-NJ said:

I may be missing something, but why all the outrage over the "no firearms" signs in various businesses. The signs are primarily there for tort liability reasons.

If you have a legal CCW permit, who's going to know you're carrying as long as your gun stays concealed. Discretion is the better part of valor. Or put another way, why make a stink if you don't have to.

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That's always been my philosophy.

"No shirt,No shoes, No service" signs are the same difference. The owner of the store has the right to post them, for the reasonable decency and safety of their overall clientele.

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Hmm, I disagree strongly with that. Company policy regarding decency or hygiene are definitely not the "same difference" as one affecting a constitutional right.