Tin Foil Hat Topic: Buying "under the table".

I don't think it has any merit at all. If the day ever comes when "they" come around to collect our firearms, they will already have put intoplace some means of requiring complete registration of all firearms with enough of a penalty to insure we all have registered all of the guns in our possession. Any firearms acquired through non-public means will be disclosed at that time, regardless of method of acquisition.

OK, I'm putting my tinfoil hat back on now, then I'm going to loook in today's newspaper for any good deals through private FTF sales.

In the event of completely disregarding the 2nd Amendment, I'm sure they would take care of the remainder of the Constitution also: Which also states the "unreasonable search and seizure" clause.

loose noose said:

In the event of completely disregarding the 2nd Amendment, I'm sure they would take care of the remainder of the Constitution also: Which also states the "unreasonable search and seizure" clause.

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The "need" to buy unpapered guns stems primarily from the media's depiction of "the way things are" and how on every TV show and movie they talk about tracing a gun's "registration" back to so and so. It's misinformation, plain and simple. While I personally prefer to buy guns face to face, I've bought more than my fair share from shops and individuals in other states necessitating a 4473, so at this point it's "too late" or not an issue depending on how you look at it - I'm also a CWL holder, so it REALLY doesn't matter because not only do "THEY" know I have guns, "THEY" also licensed me to carry one.

In any case, and in response to loose noose, they're already working on it - NDAA, CISPA (pending, but with heavy support from both parties) and other less known legislation are steadily whittling away our constitutionally protected rights - It's been happening for decades, just not at the extremely increased rate of the past 3 years.

Agreed

I think before they try to take away the 2nd amendment completely they will require gun registration. So we have to be careful to elect people that would never go along with that... and if it ever does happen, well, there's the writing on the wall. I believe similar situations happened in Australia and the UK... restrictions, more restrictions, complete registration, then confiscation. And there are only...half a million "illegal" guns in the UK, so you can guess how many gun owners buried them in the backyard rather than give them up.

Discussing logically:

I don't worry about buying on or off a 4473, I just look for a good deal. I don't think it matters. Here's why: (Note, I don't think this is actually, reasonably going to happen. We're deep in fiction territory here)

If the US government start's coming door to door for weapons, crossed checked against 4473's our country is dead. That's the point that we need to take up those weapons and remove that government. There's no point in turning most weapons over to the troops, and saving a hold out. What, at that point, are you saving it for? There's someone on here's sig line that says, in response (I assume) to the omnipresent boating accident and questions like this: If it's time to bury your guns, it's time to use them. And they're right. At the hypothetical you're proposing, don't hide one or two guns, start shooting. The revolution is here at that point. So given all that, what do I care if the troops that knock on my door have a list of what's about to shoot at them?

Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn said:

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?

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The obvious post script to this is that we have a responsibility as citizens to be involved in our government and make sure it never comes to this. If it goes that far, we've all failed, tragically.

Raildriver beat me to it.......

I have known people that have never and will not buy one with paperwork.

My reply to them each time is...if you think that IF it gets bad and gun rights are lost you will be left out of confiscation efforts, just because you never had paperwork...you are dreaming!

And what good is a hidden or buried firearm....lol

we need an emotiocon with a "Tin Foil Hat"

And +10 to Dogmush! Well stated!

Many say this about buying from individuals rather than through FFL dealers. Personally I am not particularly concerned about confiscation. If such a thing happened and it is legal to sell face to face in your state, you simply say you sold it, lost it, or it was stolen. BUT, I do record for my own records what firearms were purchased from individuals.

One thing to remember, if confiscation did in fact happen, it would be voluntary at first. There are insufficient law enforcement to do door to door searches and I doubt many would be willing to do it.

Guns move around a lot from owner to owner.

^ True dat. If you believe that purchasing sans paper is a benefit, the same can be said for the fact that a seller isn't required to keep paperwork. Every gun I have ever purchased via 4473 has been sold privately and is no longer in my modest collection.

Government data from surveys such as NSPOF mean that the gov't knows that people buy sell and trade guns privately; ATF recognizes the right of an owner to sell, swap or trade a used gun as long as there is no reason to believe the recepient is a prohibited person. I seriously doubt if ATF would expect me today to produce that .308 rifle I bought twenty four years ago on a 4473.

Sales records are not registration, but to get national registration, there are hurdles.
Anyone not pay attention to what happened with the Canadian long gun registry?
After seventeen years it was repealled.
During those 17 years there was probably 50% non compliance rate among Canadian long gun owners. Protests with public burning of registration forms.
At a cost of 2.7 billion dollars, the registry produced corrobating evidence in four cases where the suspect, motive and opportunity were established evidence; not really an aid in conviction, and no crimes prevented or solved as a result of the registry.

A national gun registry in the US would be a very hard sell. In his arguments against Heller 08 Justice Breyer seemed hung up on supposed benefits of gun control. I think the history of the Canadian long gun registry shows that the costs of national gun registration are very, very high, and the benefits are practically non-existent (unless you are a politically-connected computer system vendor).

The "paperwork trail" has inherent problems that make it a short term feel good measure......after the firearm goes to the next generation whatever paperwork there was is worthless.

I consider it a good day anytime I end a paper trail.

How did the post-Katrina confiscations go down? Were old 4473 forms checked and houses were searched? Did they go door to door "asking"? Or did they just send jack-boot thugs to perform illegal searches of all homes like Fallujah?

I dont care about 4473 forms but I will refuse to give my info to a private citizen for record keeping. Ill show my CCW permit for reassurance but I dont see the point of any ordinary citizen recording my private info.

ETA: I am in no way referring to our service men/women as thugs. It was more about the style of raids performed.

There are simply to many guns out there for them to deal with in any effective way.
If they are going to do something foolish it will be done via the amunition for those guns.
Gotta go make a new chinstrap for my foil headware it keeps slipping [maybe best to spring clamp it to my ears].
T

If the government actually wanted to do this, it would start out with registration and and a registry and become more restrictive down the time line. People would rebel if it was done quickly. It is not going to happen anytime soon.

It is far more effective to regulate ammunition sales via taxation and restrictions on type of ammunition. If you can't buy or load ammunition, a gun is just a club.

Thats exactly why they want access to all credit card transactions without a search warrant. The CC companies already save every purchase you make but the gubment has to have a reason to look at it. Then they will know every ammo, primer, powder, and boolet purchase you make.

After the form is filled out and possession taken of said firearm you can do whatever you want with it as long as it is legal. In states where the paperwork has to move with the purchase I feel sorry for the population. I live in a free state that does not require registration unless it is required by BATF. Say class 3 or silencers and such. I can sell a firearm to anyone without paperwork as long as they are legally able to purchase it from me. If I buy a firearm today and tomorrow find a deal that I can't refuse and trade, or need some fast cash and legally sell it to someone there is nothing they can do to me. NOTE---NOT a straw purchase IF I originally purchased the firearm for my own use at the time of sale and then decided to sell it for any number of reasons at any time thereafter. That includes as a gift for a third party as long as everyone can legally take ownership. This all has been laid out before on here to an extreme. I agree if the time comes that the gov attempts to confiscate all the firearms that is the time to use them not hide any IMHO. If it gets to that those left here will only THINK that they are still free.

I consider it a good day anytime I end a paper trail.

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M2 I agree wholeheartedly! Lol

If the US government start's coming door to door for weapons, crossed checked against 4473's our country is dead. That's the point that we need to take up those weapons and remove that government. There's no point in turning most weapons over to the troops, and saving a hold out. What, at that point, are you saving it for? There's someone on here's sig line that says, in response (I assume) to the omnipresent boating accident and questions like this: If it's time to bury your guns, it's time to use them. And they're right. At the hypothetical you're proposing, don't hide one or two guns, start shooting. The revolution is here at that point. So given all that, what do I care if the troops that knock on my door have a list of what's about to shoot at them?

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Dogmush, very well said!

GOD BLESS TEXAS. (...and that's all I have to say about that. -Forest Gump)

From my archives on Katrina at least four mainstream news videos touching on arms confiscations.

ABC abcnews.mpeg early general evacuation order, 8 Sep 2005 evacuate "w/o using force"; police and national guard house-to-house with guns includng M4s drawn w. orders to take guns from residents. NOPD chief: "No one will be allowed to be armed." Guns taken from dry wealthy neighborhoods

CNN ForcedEvacCNN.wmv forced evacuation, arms confiscation

SF Ch2 CHP1.asx deployment of Califorina Highway Patrol CHP sworn in as LSP special officers

SF Ch2 CHP2.asx CHPs v Patricia Konie in her home. her Magazine St. house high and dry, stockpiled food, water, meds, pets; she refuses to leave, they ask about weapons, she shows her revolver and knife; CHPs body slam her against the wall, drag her out with a dislocated shoulder to be taken to evacuation center.

No pulling 4473s from dealers; apparently they went door to door and if you answered, asked, got guns?

Of course today anti-gunners maintain none of that happened, it was just NRA propaganda.

Well, having inherited a Remington .22 rifle, a 12 gauge semi-auto shotgun, a 20 gauge pump and an M-1 carbine from my father I have "off-paper" acquisitions.

I am not sure whether or not gun registration will necessarily have to precede confiscation. I don't have a very high opinion of our legislatures' IQs and they may do it bass ackwards from what history suggests.
That said I do think any large scale confiscation would be tough as there are too few LEOs (and other agency martinets) available to do it efficiently. However, an inability to do something "efficiently" has never stopped our much renowned government from its ambitions....

Carl N. Brown said:

Sales records are not registration, but to get national registration, there are hurdles.
Anyone not pay attention to what happened with the Canadian long gun registry?
After seventeen years it was repealled.

During those 17 years there was probably 50% non compliance rate among Canadian long gun owners. Protests with public burning of registration forms.

At a cost of 2.7 billion dollars, the registry produced corrobating evidence in four cases where the suspect, motive and opportunity were established evidence; not really an aid in conviction, and no crimes prevented or solved as a result of the registry.

I think the history of the Canadian long gun registry shows that the costs of national gun registration are very, very high, and the benefits are practically non-existent (unless you are a politically-connected computer system vendor).

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You have to love our friends up North. One enterprising individual even registered a soldering gun out of protest of the gun registry.

This is from ten years ago....

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-105821.html



Manitoba man who registered soldering gun as a protest could get jail time

OAK LAKE, Man. (CP) - A man who successfully registered his soldering gun as a firearm says he did so to point out the absurdity of the federal gun registry program.

But Brian Buckley's act of civil disobedience may create more problems than he bargained for. Government officials aren't happy and, according to the Criminal Code, he could go to jail for up to five years. Buckley, who has a possession-only firearms licence, said he got a form to register his guns in the mail around Christmas time.

By law, all firearms must be registered by Jan. 1, 2003.

However, Canadians have not been quick to comply and that forced Ottawa to waive registration fees last October in an attempt to get more guns listed.

Buckley, who is an autobody shop owner, said he is opposed to the new gun laws and calls the registration process a waste of time and money.

So he decided to play with the system.

"I just filled it in," he said. "I put my Black & Decker heat gun and my Weller soldering gun on there, didn't stamp it, and sent it back in."

He listed the "guns" as a non-restricted firearm, the same as most shotguns or hunting rifles. In the spot asking for the gun's make, he filled out Black & Decker/Weller. In the spot for type, he put heat gun/soldering gun.

When the registration card came back a few weeks later, Buckley couldn't believe his eyes.

"It never once occurred to me that it would be taken seriously and that I would get a certificate and be issued a registration number," Buckley said. "It never crossed my mind that they are that incompetent there."


(He did not receive a fine or jail time)

I don't believe our government will ever try to confiscate all fire arms. If I were to purchace from a private party I would do so as the law allows.

Walkalong said:

I have guns I bought from individuals with no paperwork, and guns I bought from dealers where I did the paper work. They are all the same to me.

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They aren't quite the same to me. I own some guns purchased through private party sales and I would never carry a gun for CCW that I didn't have a dated 4473 form for. God forbid I ever need to use a gun in self-defense, but God also forbid if that gun turns out to have a 'skeleton in its closet' that could possibly be pinned on me.

But I certainly agree with your bigger point...if the time comes we need to be worried about having paper on guns then it's past time to save ourselves.