A Modern BP Self-Defense Revolver

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Jaymo said:
I like the idea of building it on something like a Smith K frame. The ejector star could be designed to eject the 209 primers.
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That is an excellent idea with the ejector! It could be marketed as a cheaper training alternative to a standard .38 Smith. Now what about the bullets? I'm thinking basically a larger version of the Companion bullets that are copper plated and a similar loading tool. The chambers would have to be chamfered for harder lead bullets to be seated easier, soft lead would cause excessive leading if smokeless powder were used.

Lead round nosed bullets are good, at 1200 FPS in .22 caliber they penetrate well and mushroom nicely. I tried plating some NAA bullets in copper after removing the lube, I don't know if it's me but they seem to be more effective.

I have also cut an X on the nose of the bullet with a sharp bowie knife, the .22's expand to almost twice their size. I'd hate to be shot with that, especially in .36 or .357 caliber.

Of course a benefit of this is you could shoot lead balls propelled by a magnum primer in the basement or garage, that would be pretty fun!

Or what about something built like an H&R 9 shot .22 that is percussion, I'd buy that! :D

Just brainstorming here, I have a bunch of cool ideas for guns.
 
Busyhands94 said:
Junkman 01, NAA used to have smokeless load data in the manual for their Companions, but the ATF had them take it out or the gun would need to be re-classified from what I understand. And being on the frame of a Smith and Wesson model 10 it would be like buying a receiver of a firearm, that is what they consider to be the firearm itself. However if the gun were similar in appearance and the cylinder was just a little shorter then you couldn't just pop a cartridge cylinder in there without chucking it on a lath first, it wouldn't fit therefore it wouldn't be "too easy to convert" by the ATF's standards.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

~Levi
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Levi,

Backup what you think with facts, because the LAW (GCA '68) says differently!
 
Levi - are you suggesting a new cylinder that functions like a Rem 1858 in that you put primers instead of caps on the nipples and load the cylinder like the Rem?
 
Junkman 01, sorry to be blunt but I don't appreciate you being condescending all the time. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to please stop, no disrespect intended.

You know how it is. If you put the word "defensive" on a BP handgun they'll send their evil henchmen over to the manufacturer and make them either take it out of the manual and say it's a novelty or make them re-classify it. They did that with NAA and their companions, no doubt if you make a modern percussion gun built on a K-frame that takes smokeless they'll do that too.

They also don't mention airsoft guns in the GCA, but apparently they are trying to ban certain airsoft guns because they can be converted to fire live ammo. Don't ask me why your common street criminal would do this because the cost of parts would be too expensive.

And yes Gary, I'm talking modern ignition with 209 primers and smokeless powder, but you can change the cylinder by dropping a new one in like the shell in a single shot shotgun. That would make reloads quick, just like cartridges. The beauty of this would be that you could have an extra cylinder loaded up or maybe a few.

What about one that is like a Colt Peacemaker? That would be really, really cool!

I had an idea a while back about getting one of those 1873 replica guns that uses 209 primers to make some noise, sleeving the barrel to .22 or .177, and making it so I could shoot airgun pellets with shotgun primers. I'd suspect it would only shoot about 300-400 FPS or maybe 600-800 with .177, but that would still be the coolest "pellet gun" ever. There couldn't be too much pressure, and no doubt the path of least resistance would be out the barrel. Even if the frame is white metal there are plenty of .22's with frames of that stuff. My buddy has an RG-10 that he shoots all the time, maybe he got lucky and got a good one. Single action isn't too inaccurate.

Of course it would only be a parlor pistol, not firing fixed ammo. Just like the Pedersoli Guardian, shooting pellets or lead BB's with 209 primers except it holds six.

~Levi
 
And yes Gary, I'm talking modern ignition with 209 primers and smokeless powder, but you can change the cylinder by dropping a new one in like the shell in a single shot shotgun. That would make reloads quick, just like cartridges. The beauty of this would be that you could have an extra cylinder loaded up or maybe a few.
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You mean like a Remington 1858?
 
junkman_01 said:
Look at my signature line... I AM the devil's advocate! :evil:
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Oh come on, am I being too polite here? :banghead: I don't want to jump down anyone's throat here, I just have a very condescending mother and need a break. Guess you are the Devil's advocate. Oh well. I tried.

And yes, I'm talking about replaceable cylinders just like the Remington NMA. But for the NMA it means dropping the loading lever, pulling the cylinder pin, pulling the hammer back a little, and rotating out the cylinder. What I have in mind would mean hitting the catch and swinging the cylinder out like a conventional S&W revolver, pulling out the empty, putting in a fresh one and swinging it closed. Much faster, approximately as fast as a swing-open revolver with a speed loader.
 
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I would like to see something like that in real life. I've seen it in video games for futuristic revolvers. I do actually have a ancient H&R top break revolver which is a clone of the S&W topbreaks. It's cylinder is taken out by breaking it open like normal and then pressing a button and sliding it off.
 
junkman_01 said:
Look at my signature line... I AM the devil's advocate! :evil:
Click to expand...

By looking it up, at least now I know what a devil's advocate is and that it doesn't have anything to do with advocating for the devil. :)

devil’s advocate (plural devil’s advocates)

1. (idiomatic) One who debates from a view which he may not actually hold, usually to determine its validity or simply for the sake of argument.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/devil's_advocate
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Devil's advocate

In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position. It can also refer to someone who takes a stance that is seen as unpopular or unconventional, but is actually another way of arguing a much more conventional stance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate
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I would love to see J frame 5 shot .36/6 shot .31, K frame 5 shot .44/6 shot .36/7shot .31,
L frame 7 shot .36/8 shot .31/5 or 6 shot .44, and N frame 6 shot .44/8 shot .36 cap and ball revolvers.

The only problem I can foresee with using 209s is that they may unseat/propel the ball before full ignition of the propellant charge. Apparently it's an issue with inline rifles, and can cause accuracy problems.
I don't know, because I never shot my CVA Wolf/sold it. My TC ThunderHawk takes #11 caps.

The milder, muzzleloader-specific BP 209 primers should prevent the problem.
I think flash tubes would eliminate the problem completely, if the powder end of the tubes were closed, with flash holes around the circumference.
To prevent noticeable loss of propellant volume, the flash tubes would need to be short, bordering on being no more than a slightly elongated nipple, with radial flash holes, rather than a single linear flash hole.

I'm actually tempted to make flash tubes for some of mine. May even have to make some elongated, radial flash hole, nipples, too.

My TC ThunderHawk already has such a nipple, without the closed end.
 
If any of you are familure with the 1632 "universe" from Eric Flint and Baen Books which is a time travel adventure series the folks that participated in the "Firearms Round Table" a private Yahoo group that produced papers for some of the 1632 universe books discussed using percussion cylinders on modern revolver frames. Imagine a small W. Virginia village shoved into 1632 Bavaria. Once the supply of modern ammo runs out what do you do? I wanted to continue using cartridges, either reloadeing proper cartridges of current make or making new ones from say the metal of berdan cases that had been damaged. (I wrote a short scene with a preriferal character making cases with a hydrolic car jack, hand made dies and a brasser for annealing between steps that was not bought.)Most however liked the idea of a BP "muzzle loading cylinder" that could be droped in and out on a modified crane.....pretty much just what you are discussing here. I rather thought the idea of a cylinder with a back plate that included individual large diameter "firing pins" that attached via a bayonet mount and which as a result sort of proteced the capped cylinders. Others insisted that capped cylinders were no problem and I shuddered to think these folks might try loading precapped cylinders on BP revolvers around other people.

-kBob
 
Do you also shutter at the thought of loading primed .38 SPL cartridges into a DA revolver? Same thing.
 
Political Backlash

I actually thought of something along these lines when I was 19 as a substitute for a modern pistol until I turned 21. Thinking about it now, I wonder if a pistol like this being manufactured (In volume, as a production item) would create unwanted attention to this "loophole" in gun laws. I can hear the media now...

"A new handgun on the market is exploiting a loophole in federal law that allows it to be sold to children, felons, and the mentally ill with no background checks."

There are plenty of things that may be legal (e.g. 80% receivers), but I do think that it is in out best interest for some of these things to not be offered by major manufacturers. As soon as some jack-ass misuses something like this we could be in for a rewrite of the NFA and the GCA and not in our favor. Most countries treat not only the receiver as a firearm, but barrels, slides, and any other major part. To be clear, I am NOT saying people shouldn't do anything they want if it is legal, but it might be a good idea to do so quietly.
 
It sure wouldn't. Besides, it's not a handgun marketed for children or the mentally ill. All that pistol would be marketed as would be a replica of a S&W model 10 that fires using an older system of ignition. It could be marketed as a cheap alternative to .38 special ammo, the media or the Govt' isn't going to do a price check.

Of course there's plenty of stuff the media can go off about, they just are too dumb to find it. I had a percussion revolver and a bunch of BP firearms at 16 and 17, legally might I add. It's not like kids are going to be running around shooting eachother with cap and ball revolvers all the time. That would be fairly uncommon, it's the same as an 1860 Colt Army except it looks different and you can load it with smokeless powder. Besides, would you think those white kids with the weird hats who go around calling everyone the "N word" would even know how to load a cap and ball revolver without blowing themselves up or something?

Or what about an 1858 Remington or an 1863 pocket revolver with a properly hardened frame of the correct steel, maybe beefed up a little. Of course having a stepped cylinder that would allow for use of smokeless gunpowder, and 209 ignition. Sure, you'd have to weigh the charges but it would be worth it to have a powerful and paperless handgun.

Basically an 1858 Remington that is capable of being shot safely with smokeless gunpowder. Conical bullets of the right hardness could be sold for use with the gun, maybe some hollow points for "hunting" or "sporting purposes" or something like that.

~Levi
 
I heard the Gyrojet rounds were inaccurate. If they were accurate, reliable, and hard hitting, I'd love to have one.

There is a "modern" cartridge revolver that has been remade as a cap & ball.
The 1873 Colt single action army. Pietta and Uberti have both made them.
We know the concept will work.
I say make the Magnum Research BFR as a cap & ball. The .45-70 version would hold a boatload of BP behind the projectile.
Not exactly a practical SD size, but it would sure pack a punch.
 
Good point! That's modern, can be used for self defense, and can shoot smokeless powder. The Super Companion is an excellent example of a modern BP revolver that could be used for self defense. I'm pretty sure that's what they designed for by Dick Casull, I mean why else would you make a .22 BP revolver of that size that will shoot with smokeless powder.

The Super Companion is a good weapon, and as a bonus those two grains of Bullseye sound like a .38 in that short barrel. That could be a serious intimidation factor right there, If someone fired that at me from five feet and all I had was a knife or a chain, I'd probably run too. Shoot, I even carry mine for the purposes of self defense when I'm out checking the trot line or in the woods.

The reason I carry is because we have a lot of pot growers in North California, I've stumbled upon quite a few remnants of them out there. I've found a few pipes, some empty planters, some trimmings, and stuff like that. I only find things like that once or twice a year, but it's still discomforting to know that there's druggery going on back there.

I also found a fishhook on a piece of baling wire at eye level. Scary stuff. That was only once, but I'm alert.

My ex-lover and I used to trek all over the woods, exploring nature was what we almost always did together. We ended up finding a backpack with a ton of crap in it once. Cloths, food, water, a pipe, pot seeds, a knife, a bottle of Jack Daniels and there was a loaded revolver in that backpack as well as ammo. The backpack as well as a few grocery bags of food were scattered around the scene as well as some other garbage.

While we were up there we also smelled rotting cadaver. From what I'd imagine a mountain lion must have gotten the guy, the pocket of the backpack that had the pistol in it was half unzipped. Maybe it was a murder, he could have run into someone else protecting their crop.

It's a dangerous world out there, I'm not going unarmed. I like being alive too much.
~Levi
 
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