stinger 327
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Generally which is a better round for protection? 230 grain hollow point, or a 165 grain hollow point both in .45 ACP?
.45 ACP ammo
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memphisjim
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I've seen gel tests where the 185 gr didn't penetrate 10 inches
you taking about the SDX bullet?
According to Stan Chen: "Note that this bullet begins to expand at 720 fps, with full expansion reliably occurring around 850+ fps. This particular bullet does not have to be pushed to super hot velocities to be extremely effective.
After much careful consideration and testing, we decided to spec. our load at a solid 1020 fps. from a 5" Colt Government model, as we consider this to be a superb balance of expansion, penetration, controllability, and reliability in stock pistols, including compacts. We wish we didn't have to call it "+P", as it doesn't behave as such! "
also:
"1. The 185gr SCHP, loaded to between 1100 and 1200 FPS, consistently penetrates 16+" in every test as a minimum value. That is to say, in many cases it penetrates greater than this. Compare this to an average of 12-14" of penetration with a +P 230gr traditional hollowpoint.
2. The SCHP load has shown above 98% expansion rate through all media, save for steel (which crushes the hollowpoint cavity anyway).
3. In the Solid Defense X, and in every load out there, the pressures of the so-called +P are on the bottom end of what SAAMI considers +P. In Stan's SDX load, the load barely breaks through the barrier, providing only enough added pressure to get the load up to 1100-1150 FPS consistently. The recoil and pressure difference is minimal, comparative.
4. The solid copper loads have shown outstanding performance both in real-world use for Self Defense and in hunting applications, with a surprisingly high rate of consistency."
ASYM/Chen's stuff is really really good. His match ammo stands up to the highest standards of bullseye shooters, and I have no doubt they have tested the defensive load extensively.
According to Stan Chen: "Note that this bullet begins to expand at 720 fps, with full expansion reliably occurring around 850+ fps. This particular bullet does not have to be pushed to super hot velocities to be extremely effective.
After much careful consideration and testing, we decided to spec. our load at a solid 1020 fps. from a 5" Colt Government model, as we consider this to be a superb balance of expansion, penetration, controllability, and reliability in stock pistols, including compacts. We wish we didn't have to call it "+P", as it doesn't behave as such! "
also:
"1. The 185gr SCHP, loaded to between 1100 and 1200 FPS, consistently penetrates 16+" in every test as a minimum value. That is to say, in many cases it penetrates greater than this. Compare this to an average of 12-14" of penetration with a +P 230gr traditional hollowpoint.
2. The SCHP load has shown above 98% expansion rate through all media, save for steel (which crushes the hollowpoint cavity anyway).
3. In the Solid Defense X, and in every load out there, the pressures of the so-called +P are on the bottom end of what SAAMI considers +P. In Stan's SDX load, the load barely breaks through the barrier, providing only enough added pressure to get the load up to 1100-1150 FPS consistently. The recoil and pressure difference is minimal, comparative.
4. The solid copper loads have shown outstanding performance both in real-world use for Self Defense and in hunting applications, with a surprisingly high rate of consistency."
ASYM/Chen's stuff is really really good. His match ammo stands up to the highest standards of bullseye shooters, and I have no doubt they have tested the defensive load extensively.
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Truthfully, if you hit your target as you should, it won't make a tinker's dam worth of difference.
Instead of looking for a "magic bullet", just find a JHP from one of the major manufacturers, that functions properly in "YOUR" handgun, and then practice, practice, practice.
I know it's kind of boring to think of it this way, but money spent practicing with a relatively inexpensive JHP that works in your handgun is better spent than money on a "super" bullet.
Instead of looking for a "magic bullet", just find a JHP from one of the major manufacturers, that functions properly in "YOUR" handgun, and then practice, practice, practice.
I know it's kind of boring to think of it this way, but money spent practicing with a relatively inexpensive JHP that works in your handgun is better spent than money on a "super" bullet.
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Not .45 ACP specific, but FWIW: I consider ammunition to be like the tires on a car in that different purposes call for different types, and it can make an appreciable difference. Fortunately, we live in a time where there are a lot of high-end makers of a bullet type that's evolved technologically in the last 20 years or so. Last time I made a purchase of hollowpoint ammo, I wanted to save money buying in bulk and by doing so have enough to test my carry load before CCW with it and have plenty on hand. I wittled down the list of manufacturers I preferred, and the range of bullet weights I was okay with. After that I just went with what saved me the most money.
Loosedhorse
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I think there are some calibers (like 9mm) where ammo choice is critical, and can take you all the say from poor stopper to great stopper.
The .45 isn't like that. I think if you go with any dependably expanding HP from 160-230 grains, it'll do.
Be aware if you have fixed sights and want to be on at 25 yards or beyond, you'll need to check whether your POA is close to your POI if you use an unusual weight.
The .45 isn't like that. I think if you go with any dependably expanding HP from 160-230 grains, it'll do.
Be aware if you have fixed sights and want to be on at 25 yards or beyond, you'll need to check whether your POA is close to your POI if you use an unusual weight.
As good as premium ammo is these days it's hard to go wrong with whatever bullet weight they offer. That said I generally prefer mid-heavy for caliber. 165 sounds too light in .45 for me, I stick with 230 grains.
Modern ammo is designed to work from a wide range of weights and within a wide range of velocities. By work I mean expand well and penetrate far enough (about 12").
More important is how well it functions and how accurate is in your chosen gun.
Modern ammo is designed to work from a wide range of weights and within a wide range of velocities. By work I mean expand well and penetrate far enough (about 12").
More important is how well it functions and how accurate is in your chosen gun.
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stinger 327
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Even if it is a FMJ round it is still going to make big holes and won't have to rely on expansion. That's where placement counts.
mljdeckard
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Use the best JHP round your gun will feed. Brands don't make much difference. That is all.
Almost. The only reason I would mess with anything lighter than a 230 gr bullet is if I was using a shorter than 5" barrel. (Which I haven't done in almost 20 years.) With a shorter barrel you lose velocity, a lighter bullet helps you get it back.
Almost. The only reason I would mess with anything lighter than a 230 gr bullet is if I was using a shorter than 5" barrel. (Which I haven't done in almost 20 years.) With a shorter barrel you lose velocity, a lighter bullet helps you get it back.
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stinger 327
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Buffalo Bore, and Corbon have some hot .45 ACP rounds.
mljdeckard
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For what? .45 ACP works just fine at its intended velocity.
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stinger 327
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Is the effective range of the .45 alot less than the 9mm or .40 CAL?
mljdeckard
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Nope. The effective range of all combat handguns is about the same.
.45 ACP was designed as a big & slow round. It has been truly battle-tested in wars and on the mean streets of 4 Continents.
I don't understand why people think they need to improve on this by coming-up with these lighter & faster loads.
If you want light & fast rounds, go to .40SW.
I don't understand why people think they need to improve on this by coming-up with these lighter & faster loads.
If you want light & fast rounds, go to .40SW.
Because the manufacturers of these rounds always seem to find someone to buy them. Heck, once upon a time frangible rounds were the hot ticket. But for the most part common sense has prevailed, and while they're still around, they're a special purpose round.
Put a big ole hunk of lead, moving at 800 fps or a bit more, into your target where you should, and the design is not as important as many folks make it out to be.
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stinger 327
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Yes Magsafe I remember these were over $1.00 per round a frangible very hi-velocity but light in weight round. In 1987 these were hot.
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stinger 327
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Not really true, seeing as animal bodies are highly elastic and aren't inclined to just vaporize on contact with foreign objects. Bullets, especially non-expanding bullets, are prone to leaving wound channels much narrower than the bullet itself.
.45 FMJ may not shrink, but it's not leaving a .45" tunnel in your enemy either. It worked in past wars because it was the weapon available. That's no reflection on how suitable antique fighting bullet designs are for fighting in 2012. FMJ handgun bullets are totally obsolete as a defensive bullet option, except in the tiny calibers that actually struggle with achieving acceptable penetration to begin with.
If anyone doubts that, try to find a single example of an organization that involves carrying a handgun, like a police department or government agency, that has reverted to FMJ in any caliber from JHP in any caliber since 1990.
You won't find a single one. That, along with a basic understanding of the human body, and an understanding that any firearm/ammunition combo is going to be able to deliver some balance of penetration and tissue disruption which can be modified to better suit the body type of your intended target, really will help you understand why FMJ service handgun bullets are for range use only.
If you are worried about function, have you considered the difference in quality control between a line of ammunition intended and generally used for inanimate target practice and a line designed from the ground up to help you survive a lethal attack by another human being? Personally none of the pistols I've owned, from HK, S&W, CZ, FN, Glock, Ruger, and even a Taurus PT-22 have ever shown the slightest bit of reluctance to feed JHP bullets compared to FMJ ones.
A properly put together defensive pistol will not give a damn if there's an empty spot in the nose cone of your rockets, as long as they fit the chamber and magazine the way they should.
There are no magic bullets, but there are a few lines of defensive bullets that really aren't unreasonably priced for what you get. HST, Ranger-T, Gold Dot, now PDX as well, all four of those bullets absolutely dominate the contract world, all are readily available in 50-round boxes for between $15 (SGammo had a bunch of Ranger Bonded, aka PDX, for that recently) and $30 a box at worst. These days it just makes no sense at all to keep target ammunition in your defense pistol over the 'cost' of bullets actually designed to be fired into people.
FMJ is a relic, it was a technologically exclusive reality for much of the time self-loading weapons have been on the scene, but FMJ bullets have received exactly zero hours of design relating to what happens when it hits a person. FMJ bullets are that way because it's cheap and easy to pump out tons of them, not because they worked well during wars.
They are the bare minimum of having a loaded gun. Yes, they work. Yes, it's still a lethal weapon. But it's a lethal weapon loaded with the lowest common denominator of projectiles, which have not received the benefit of any amount of medical knowledge regarding ballistic wounds and the physics behind fast objects hitting liquid masses, and are honestly not all that much cheaper than the top quality defense bullets.
You should test your carry ammunition, but I'm not obsessive about running the exact load through your gun hundreds or thousands of times before you can 'trust' it. Modern duty and combat oriented handgun designs will feed any in spec ammunition, or they are broken. Modern defense ammunition comes in the normal weight and velocity ranges for the caliber in question, is designed specifically for consistency and reliability, and takes advantage of possibly billions of dollars of medical research over the last hundred years.
Personally I would get my .45 ACP ammunition in 230 grain, or any regularly encountered weight. The all-copper bullets are very good, but I'd rather spend half or a third as much and get equally good or better HST or Ranger-T, conventional bullets, in conventional weights, with clearly defined performance characteristics and a flight path that matches the conventional loads the sights are regulated for.
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stinger 327
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In .25 ACP and .32 ACP FMJ is probably best for those calibers
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