Bayonets - Do They Still Have a Use?

Yes. Warfare is tending towards close quarter urban ordeals.

They make a pretty darn good tent stake too

As long as wars are fought there will still be a need for a pointy stick.

Work great for herding prisoners.
Nobody wants to get stuck on the end of a bayonet.
I don't care who ya are.

rc

Sure. I taped mine to the side of my tent to make sure I could cut my way out in the event of a fire.

CmdrSlander said:

Is there any need for one these days?

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Have modern humans evolved a resistance to bayonet wounds? A bayonet gives you extra reach over a combat knife and lets you wield both a rifle and a short spear at the same time.

I'd say now, yes, just as ever.

A Garand without a bayonet is a mean, heavy club. If you run out of ammo, you can bash someone with it. Then reload, and start shooting again.

An empty M4 with modern optics on the top is not as effective a club; and if you used it as one, you very well may damage the receiver extension and kill the zero on the optic.

Heck Yes they are still useful, especially if you know how to use it. Want proof?

As recently as 2004 in Basra Iraq, 20 British soldiers were ambushed by 100 insurgents, when ammo ran low, they fixed bayonets and took care of business winning the fight in hand to hand combat. 20+ enemy dead, no British deaths, 3 minor wounds. That was even after they charged over 200 yards of open ground and attacked the enemy in their trenches!!!

There is a tremendous amount psychological advantage to bayonet training and the mindset to employ it.


http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=391
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/88661/Bayonet-Brits-kill-35-rebels.html

Like I said, you have to know what you are doing, and have the balls to pull it off.

desidog said:

I'd say now, yes, just as ever.

A Garand without a bayonet is a mean, heavy club. If you run out of ammo, you can bash someone with it. Then reload, and start shooting again.

An empty M4 with modern optics on the top is not as effective a club; and if you used it as one, you very well may damage the receiver extension and kill the zero on the optic.

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An M4, and more so M16, works very well on the blunt end. Bayonet fighting is taught with use of both sides of the rifle, and they will withstand more impact than some think. Smash, slash, thrust, butt-stroke, move on.

Continued use of bayonets is cheap insurance to stay in the fight, and a confidence builder to the individual.

Yes. I like them for defensive purposes. Nothing says you don't want to get to close to me like a big sharp piece of metal.

Bayonets are low cost. They have many uses, including a last line of defense. Lets find something expensive, that serves no use to the soldier on the ground to make obsolete.

CmdrSlander said:

So a combat knife would have served the same purpose just as well.

My question is if bayonets - mounted on rifles - still have a use.

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you got it backwards.

If you are going to have a knife, why not have a knife that you can put solidly on the barrel of your rifle.

Yes... they still get used. I've seen 'em used. When all else fails, low tech still works. You do NOT want to charge that line of soldiers or try to grab that rifle. Nothing says calm down and back the off, in any language, like a line of fixed bayonets on leveled rifles.

Bayonets discourage people from getting too close. It's that simple.

Hand to hand combat with rifles involves both the bayonet and what military people like to refer to as "butt stroke". "Butt stroke" is the polite term for "Smashing someone's face in with the butt of a rifle". That and the bayonet are the two primary tools used to keep an enemy from gaining control of your weapon.

I've been curious about this for a while. I had a relative who led an entire company in a bayonet charge in WW2 because the enemy had excellent cover and had to be dislodged quickly to keep the momentum of the battalion's advance. It worked for the same reason that most bayonet charges have worked - the enemy lost their nerve.

I don't think there is the slightest bit of doubt about the psychological effects of sharp steel, both on the wielder and the intended recipient.

That said, today's soldier carries a huge load, and the modern knife bayonet tends to be a pretty heavy piece of kit. In addition, how many in a modern infantry squad can actually even fix bayonets to their weapon? Less than half in the US Army, I believe.

In fighting in built up areas, the bayonet adds length that is problematic.

There is a lot that needs to be done to reduce the load carried by the modern soldier, and the bayonet is a relatively easy thing to eliminate. The knife bayonet is a relatively awkward cutting tool, so most soldiers carry pocket knives and/or small fixed blades anyway.

For the very rare occasion on which it might be useful in combat, striking with the butt would almost certainly suffice and doesn't weigh anything extra.

While in civilian life we can say "It is better to have it and not need it", things are a little different when you are carrying half your own bodyweight in equipment already.

Edit to add:

Crowd control is a classic use, and one where they have enormous potential.

I haven't humped with a rifle company since 1968, but I seriously doubt an M4 would survive many horizontal butt strokes. On the other hand a bayonet is still a handy tool when the ammo is running low. The entrenching tool has already been downsized to something that would have little use other than digging a cat hole. Of course, if you only believe in best case scenario, why even take a rifle. A grunt needs lots of weapons to survive on the battlefield and none of them carry themselves there. They are carried on the back of the 0311 or the 11B

I hear some Mosins shoot more accurately, or rather, group tighter with the bayonet.

I recall a young lieutenant published an article in Infantry Magazine, proposing to replace the bayonet with a sealed 10-round magazine for emergency use. He closed the article by saying he would take on anyone with his system and with them using the bayonet.

Several people replied, "You're on. Your rifle is the one with the broken extractor and the case stuck in the chamber."

Close in combat still works. My team leaders brother killed an Iraqi soldier during the invasion with his E-tool. One of the squad leaders in my platoon during my second tour butt stroked an insurgent with his M4 which by the way was VERY effective.

I know what you mean, Vern!
If infantry grunts don't need bayonets because they have rifles, why do F-15 pilots need 9mm pistols?
(hint: because when 'fancy' doesn't work, 'crude but effective' is called for.)

If I'm any example I don't think anyone that's had serious bayonet training is ever going to forget it. I'm also pretty sure that most with the training pray that it's never needed.... Anything that keeps your opponent from getting close enough to bite you is worth having on hand when your ammo is gone or that fine weapon is jammed.... Scare me enough I'm probably going to use it.

My brother gave me a refinished M1 Carbine bayonet he got at a flea market for about $15. It had a broken tip, which he reground, then reparkerized. I was amazed at how sharp and nice the edge was after resharpening. The M1 Carbine bayonet had previously been designed as an (M3 ?) fighting knife. It would be as practical today as it was in WWII as a knife, especially with an edge like that on mine. I'm sure a lot of dead enemy would say the same about the Garand bayonet. Do we need them? I hope not, I don't like being that close to the enemy. Would I want to be without a good, strong, big knife that I could use to fight with, or open a can or crate? No. A bayonet serves those purposes. Just think of it as tool that works as well today as it did thousands of years ago.

"That was even after they charged over 200 yards of open ground and attacked the enemy in their trenches!!!" Can you Imagine the look on their faces?