Best Selling Rifle in America
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meanmrmustard
Member
If they're American made, marketed, and sold...then I'd say yeah. Sold in the US is the name of the game, even if the lower is machined in Turkeydurkeystan and the upper in Massachusetts. American sales is the point.
fatcat4620
Member
But if aero machines 1000 lowers for palmetto they tell the BAFT they manufactured 1000 firearms. Palmetto then uses those lowers to build 1000 rifles and sells them. Palmetto also reports the rifle sales to BAFT. So how many rifles have been produced?
Also I have never heard of a lower manufactured outside of the united states. It might be illegal.
meanmrmustard
Member
You've also never heard of Turkeydurkeystan.
The firearm is the lower, so 1000 rifles are sold in accordance with the ATF.
No, just like all semi auto rifles don't count as ARs
I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
Did I miss where somebody was counting manufacture and sales separately and then adding them together??
meanmrmustard
Member
So, then you're saying only 556 direct impingement AR15s are what counts? ARs just happen to be A semi rifle. Bolt rifle is a bolt rifle. That encompasses alot, whereas AR15s that are only DI and 556 is just the tip of the iceberg. We aren't comparing gas piston ARs vs controlled round feed here. If its platform vs platform, then I'd say bolt action rifles are competition.
I understand just fine. Be fair to the other rifles. If all gas operating systems, calibers, and manufacturers count for the AR15, then bolt rifles of different caliber, feed system, and manufacturer count too. In which case, I'd like to see THAT sales comparison.
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meanmrmustard
Member
Ha..ha. Ha.
fatcat4620
Member
It seemed that the ONLY person who tried to come up with real numbers beyond internet "i said so" was including sales figures from companies who do not produce lowers and therefore do not produce AR 15s. The fact that no person has been able to point to any real source for numbers speaks volumes. The OP did not even try to show how it had the highest sales volume. He made an unfounded statement. I know it makes you feel warm and fuzzy to have the most popular rifle and that makes you feel the need to defend it. All I ask for is REAL numbers or this is just another internet lie.Did I miss where somebody was counting manufacture and sales separately and then adding them together??
So I didn't miss anything. Okay, just checking.
M1GarandDeerHunter
Member
Sweet 16
Best Selling Rifle in America
AR-15 - The best selling type of rifle in America.
This opens up lots of areas for discussion...
1 Why do you think is it a hot seller?
2 Do you have one?
3 Why did you choose the AR-15 platform?
4 Did you purchase it from a licensed dealer or a private individual?
5 How much ammo do you keep on hand and why?
__________________
Bud Parker
1SG, US Army, Retired
Back to the original question that Top asked about, I think its an interesting question, so I'll answer it.
1) Dude, these things just work! You can have it your way, any way, or no way! Cool factor is HIGH. Durable. Fun. Affordable. American. Accurate! RELIABLE.
2)Yup, a bunch of them.
3) Started shooting them when I was 12 years old. Was the first HP rifle I ever shot. M-16A1. Pops was an E8 and connected, so I got lots of trigger time on one in a hole under some Sgt. watchful eye.
Used it in the US Army. Know it well.
Shot a TON of matches with it. It wins baby!
Plink with it. Hunt with it.
Teach kids and new shooters with it.
Cheap to reload, parts are cheap and available, lots of brass available!
Idiot proof, hard to goof in take down.
Lasts. Ive seen barrels with half their rifling gone still shoot reasonably well at 200 yds and under.
Also, almost UNBELIEVABLE number of variations and calibers.
4) Mainly dealers, or directly from mfg. built a few too.
5) Lots, not sure how much. For real. 10k plus is a guess. Load it and shoot it baby! Turn that ammo into SKILL!!
Comments:
Guys and Gals be it known that I am a LOVER of 30 Cal. and Garand type rifles in particular , however, and I mean HOWEVER, because Ive coached, trained, and taught civillians and military how to shoot I think the AR is a SPLENDID rifle to learn on!! Recoil is very manageable, and the weapon will not destroy your position if its not perfect like a 30 will. There are FAR MORE competitors that are women and children than there was years ago due to this fact. This means more gun owners and more political clout. Plus I know plenty of guys and gals that dont shoot matches but shoot for fun or hunt, that love their Remington or whatever X brand AR hunting or tacticool rifle. Auto loaders, more specifically AR and older Garand style rifles are the next gen. hunting and go to longarm of Americans. They have taken their rightful place alongside the muzzle loaders, single shot, bolt action and lever action rifles. I say "Welcome to the family".
Best Selling Rifle in America
AR-15 - The best selling type of rifle in America.
This opens up lots of areas for discussion...
1 Why do you think is it a hot seller?
2 Do you have one?
3 Why did you choose the AR-15 platform?
4 Did you purchase it from a licensed dealer or a private individual?
5 How much ammo do you keep on hand and why?
__________________
Bud Parker
1SG, US Army, Retired
Back to the original question that Top asked about, I think its an interesting question, so I'll answer it.
1) Dude, these things just work! You can have it your way, any way, or no way! Cool factor is HIGH. Durable. Fun. Affordable. American. Accurate! RELIABLE.
2)Yup, a bunch of them.
3) Started shooting them when I was 12 years old. Was the first HP rifle I ever shot. M-16A1. Pops was an E8 and connected, so I got lots of trigger time on one in a hole under some Sgt. watchful eye.
Used it in the US Army. Know it well.
Shot a TON of matches with it. It wins baby!
Plink with it. Hunt with it.
Teach kids and new shooters with it.
Cheap to reload, parts are cheap and available, lots of brass available!
Idiot proof, hard to goof in take down.
Lasts. Ive seen barrels with half their rifling gone still shoot reasonably well at 200 yds and under.
Also, almost UNBELIEVABLE number of variations and calibers.
4) Mainly dealers, or directly from mfg. built a few too.
5) Lots, not sure how much. For real. 10k plus is a guess. Load it and shoot it baby! Turn that ammo into SKILL!!
Comments:
Guys and Gals be it known that I am a LOVER of 30 Cal. and Garand type rifles in particular , however, and I mean HOWEVER, because Ive coached, trained, and taught civillians and military how to shoot I think the AR is a SPLENDID rifle to learn on!! Recoil is very manageable, and the weapon will not destroy your position if its not perfect like a 30 will. There are FAR MORE competitors that are women and children than there was years ago due to this fact. This means more gun owners and more political clout. Plus I know plenty of guys and gals that dont shoot matches but shoot for fun or hunt, that love their Remington or whatever X brand AR hunting or tacticool rifle. Auto loaders, more specifically AR and older Garand style rifles are the next gen. hunting and go to longarm of Americans. They have taken their rightful place alongside the muzzle loaders, single shot, bolt action and lever action rifles. I say "Welcome to the family".
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Now that I have no problem believing. But lumping all AR's together it only seemed fair to lump all rimfire semi-autos together too and I seriously doubt the AR sells more than the semi-auto rimfires. It's sort of an odd way of grouping things either way though. There may be some way of wording the question without just outright excluding rimfires so that the AR's come out on top.
meanmrmustard
Member
That was my same point with bolt actions. Not all semi autos are ARs, but a bolt action is just that. I think numbers to put with the statement may be helpful evidence for ARs being number one.
meanmrmustard
Member
Doubtful that direct impingement ar15s chambered in 556 have outsold bolt rifles of every flavor. Once again, if sales counts include ARs of every chambering and gas operating system, then all feeding systems and chamberings for bolt actions would have to as well for numbers not to be fudged.
M1A is not an AR.
BAR is not an AR.
M1 Carbine is not an AR.
AKs are not ARs.
M700 is a bolt rifle.
XBolt is a bolt rifle.
American is a bolt.
M77 is a bolt.
So on, and so forth. There really isn't a "type" of bolt rifle setting it apart from another. Since straight pull actions aren't made anymore to my knowledge, bolt actions are nominally a singular group based on design. There's several different operating system encompassed when you say "semi auto", which then you'd be right: I'm sure there's more semis sold annually. I'm simply saying, what are the numbers of ARs (gas piston, DI, blowback) of all calibers vs. bolt action rifles?
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Well, lumping all AR's together is like lumping all Mosin-Nagants together, not all bolt-actions. Lumping all centerfire bolt-action rifles together would be like lumping all gas-operated centerfire semiautos together (mini-14/30, M1 Garand, M1A, Remington 7400, AR-15, BAR, SKS, AK, FNAR, SCAR, Sig 556, AR-180, etc.) rather than just the AR.
The reason so many manufacturers make AR's and not, say, Remington M700's, is that the AR design is in the public domain, so that (say) Noveske does not have to get permission from Colt/FN/Armalite/whoever to make one. But a Rock River upper or lower, a Noveske upper or lower, or a Bushmaster upper or lower are the same rifle; you can take all 3 rifles apart, mix and match parts, put them back together, and they will work.
There are a few bolt rifles like that, that are directly comparable, for example the Mosin-Nagant platform---a bolt from a Russian M91/30 will fit and function in a Finnish M39 made at Sako, a Polish M44, or a Romanian Mosin of whatever flavor, so it makes sense to speak of overall Mosin-Nagant popularity rather than splitting hairs over M1891, 91/30, M28, M39, M44. The various vintages and manufacturers of M1903 can be grouped together similarly, I suspect, though there is less variance in that platform than there is with Mosins.
Since the overwhelming majority of AR's are 5.56x45mm/.223 and DI, it doesn't change the equation much to limit the comparison to that design. But a 5.56x45mm AR and a 6.8mm AR are the same rifle just as a Remington 700 in .308 and a Remington 700 in 7mm-08 (or whatever) are the same platform.
The best analogy comes from the handgun world. It is fair to say that (at least until recently) the 1911 (or even "the 1911 in .45 ACP") was one of the top selling centerfire pistols in the United States, even though 1911's are actually made by many different manufacturers and any single 1911 manufacturer only had a piece of that pie.
That plus the fact that a lot of people want that design because of it's background and connection to our military. Military rifles always gain a lot of popularity.
It was sort of a poorly defined criteria for what constitutes a particular rifle. It's almost like defining all flintlock, long barrel, breech loading rifles as a single rifle even though hundreds of people actually made the Kentucky Long Rifle. And even at that a lot of people call them Pennsylvania Long Rifles. It's a very broad category and other rifle don't fit into a similar peg hole so saying the AR is the leading seller is almost like saying 4 wheel cars are the leading selling automotives. It's true enough but does it really give us a lot of information. There were a lot of 3 wheeled cars at one time. But lumping all 4 wheel cars together because of a common design strategy doesn't seem to make much of a point unless you define what the competition is.
It just seems it would have made for a better response if the OP had just said AR's are popular and very good rifles and then asked people why that's true. Personally I've seen a lot of them that weren't reliable as some suggest btw. They're still great rifles for the most part and I wouldn't toss one in the river if someone gave it to me. I'd probably think long and hard about buying into the platform if I wasn't already so deep in another platform too.
A lot of companies cut every corner they can while putting out a crap product as cheaply as possible, and/or spend far too much of their budget on marketing.
Lots of bad magazines out there too.
I realize that Warp. But the rifles they are selling are still AR's. But even a lot of the so called name brand stuff has jammed a lot in my experience. I've seen a lot of guys at the range fighting with them because they were jammed up tight. They'd get them loose and fire a few more rounds and they would jam again. I didn't understand why they didn't try to fix the problem after they got the jam cleared because it was obviously going to happen again. I suppose some of them did but not all.
Don't get me wrong. I've seen lots of AR's that worked very well. But they generally cost more and fired larger caliber rounds. Maybe it's a thing with the .223 / 5.56 that it just doesn't have enough power to make guns cycle if they have even a slight problem. I'm no expert so I'm just guessing here. I just know what I've seen.
It certainly wasn't bad enough to keep me from buying an AR. It wasn't even close.
Don't get me wrong. I've seen lots of AR's that worked very well. But they generally cost more and fired larger caliber rounds. Maybe it's a thing with the .223 / 5.56 that it just doesn't have enough power to make guns cycle if they have even a slight problem. I'm no expert so I'm just guessing here. I just know what I've seen.
It certainly wasn't bad enough to keep me from buying an AR. It wasn't even close.
Swampman
Old Fart
Quote:
"Maybe it's a thing with the .223 / 5.56 that it just doesn't have enough power to make guns cycle if they have even a slight problem."
Yes, obviously the M-16 family was designed around other larger, more powerful, calibers. All these "boutique" manufacturers trying to shoehorn the 5.56x45 in there was clearly a mistake.
AR-10s notwithstanding, the AR-15/M-16 in .223/5.56 has a reasonably good track record. It was good enough that our local PD adopted them. It's possible that there may even be other organizations out there that use the platform in that caliber, but I'm not sure....
"Maybe it's a thing with the .223 / 5.56 that it just doesn't have enough power to make guns cycle if they have even a slight problem."
Yes, obviously the M-16 family was designed around other larger, more powerful, calibers. All these "boutique" manufacturers trying to shoehorn the 5.56x45 in there was clearly a mistake.
AR-10s notwithstanding, the AR-15/M-16 in .223/5.56 has a reasonably good track record. It was good enough that our local PD adopted them. It's possible that there may even be other organizations out there that use the platform in that caliber, but I'm not sure....
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Swampman
Old Fart
Hey CeeZee!
In your last entry on this thread, #119, posted on October 3, 2012, 04:58 PM you claim that...
Quote:
"It certainly wasn't bad enough to keep me from buying an AR. It wasn't even close."
That is a statement that would lead any reader unfamiliar with your post history to conclude that you had carefully considered the pros and cons of the AR, decided that the pros outweighed the cons, and purchased an AR.
But just the day before you said in post #72 (October 2, 2012, 02:46 AM) that...
Quote:
"I do not own an AR although I don't have any particular reason not to. I just already had another platform in place when the AR became more affordable."
Here's a link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679068&page=3
The post is about the 2/3rds of the way down the page.
Since it's been pointed out that you're the only poster in this thread to bring up any numbers, I thought that others might want a chance to judge the veracity of any information that you supply for themselves.
See, despite what you said about me in that other thread, I CAN read!
Is your SKS a rare " Sino-Soviet model Norinco", with the 22 mm grenade launcher and gas system cut-off switch that you expounded upon at length in THIS thread?
Link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679115&page=2
(Post #30, about 1/3rd of the way down the page)
Link to the rare "Sino-Soviet model Norinco":
http://www.unclehenrys.com/init/cla...com/init/classifieds/by_seller/347995#4082786
Fondly,
The Ignorant Troll
In your last entry on this thread, #119, posted on October 3, 2012, 04:58 PM you claim that...
Quote:
"It certainly wasn't bad enough to keep me from buying an AR. It wasn't even close."
That is a statement that would lead any reader unfamiliar with your post history to conclude that you had carefully considered the pros and cons of the AR, decided that the pros outweighed the cons, and purchased an AR.
But just the day before you said in post #72 (October 2, 2012, 02:46 AM) that...
Quote:
"I do not own an AR although I don't have any particular reason not to. I just already had another platform in place when the AR became more affordable."
Here's a link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679068&page=3
The post is about the 2/3rds of the way down the page.
Since it's been pointed out that you're the only poster in this thread to bring up any numbers, I thought that others might want a chance to judge the veracity of any information that you supply for themselves.
See, despite what you said about me in that other thread, I CAN read!
Is your SKS a rare " Sino-Soviet model Norinco", with the 22 mm grenade launcher and gas system cut-off switch that you expounded upon at length in THIS thread?
Link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679115&page=2
(Post #30, about 1/3rd of the way down the page)
Link to the rare "Sino-Soviet model Norinco":
http://www.unclehenrys.com/init/cla...com/init/classifieds/by_seller/347995#4082786
Fondly,
The Ignorant Troll
Swampman
Old Fart
Cee Zee,
While you're posting your response, can you explain about the "Class III license" that you talk about in post #72 of this thread when telling people that you DON'T have an AR?
Quote:
"Of course the original AR is a true assault weapon but I don't have a Class III license and I don't have a desire to get one."
All I've got is a couple of $200 stamps for my suppressors, but no "Class III license", so please, please, PLEASE, tell me how I can obtain the all important "license" so ATF agents don't come and arrest me!
No one at ATF TOLD me that I needed a license during the purchase process, neither did my SOT when I paid for the cans!
Please help me CeeZee! I'm pleading for your expert assistance!
The Ignorant Troll
While you're posting your response, can you explain about the "Class III license" that you talk about in post #72 of this thread when telling people that you DON'T have an AR?
Quote:
"Of course the original AR is a true assault weapon but I don't have a Class III license and I don't have a desire to get one."
All I've got is a couple of $200 stamps for my suppressors, but no "Class III license", so please, please, PLEASE, tell me how I can obtain the all important "license" so ATF agents don't come and arrest me!
No one at ATF TOLD me that I needed a license during the purchase process, neither did my SOT when I paid for the cans!
Please help me CeeZee! I'm pleading for your expert assistance!
The Ignorant Troll
Swampman
Old Fart
I've given this some thought and decided to throw this out there.
The "AR" in AR-15 originally stood for Armalite.
Since Colt purchased the rights to the name and design, I'll grant that Colt made rifles can be real AR-15s.
Unfortunately, although they have the right, they long ago lost the huevos to use it, as a quick browse through their online catalog will quickly show.
Now take a deep breath and let's say ALL the current Colt semi auto rifle models together real fast without stopping!
LE6940, LE6940P, LE6920SOCOM, LE6920, AR6720, AR6450, LE6920MP-FDE, AR6721, LE6920MP-B, LE6920CMP-B, LE6920CA, CR6720CA, CR6724CA, LE6940CA, MT6400, MT6400R, CR6720, CR6724, MT6731, MT6700 and last but not least the LE901-16S which doesn't really qualify since it's a .308. I just included it to show that nobody got left out.
Those of you who didn't actually pass out from lack of oxygen may have noticed that there wasn't an AR-15 mentioned.
Even though Colt no longer really wants or uses the AR-15 moniker they employ a mean pack of snappy lawyers to make sure no other manufacturers do either, kinda like a wolverine messin' on the food he's too stuffed to eat, just to make sure nothin' ELSE gets any good out of it.
Armalite makes AR-10s, AR-30s and AR-50s, but they don't make a single AR-15, that's a Colt brand. They make M-15s instead
From Daniel Defense, who makes M4's, DMP's, LWP's, PRP's, and SSP's all the way down to Century International Arms who make yet another M-15, proving that Armalite lawyers these days aren't near as good at copyright protection as their predecessors were, or maybe they stole the name from Century, or maybe they BOTH stole it from some mom and pop gun maker, I dunno, if you want good legal info, watch Judge Judy.
The point is that you can't find a single manufacturer of AR-15's left in America, probably in the whole world outside of a few shady Chinese factories that also produce genuine Rolax watches and Soney TV sets
Now MARKETERS, they're a different story altogether! They'll happily advertise a Noveske, Daniel Defense or Armalite AR-15, I guess they figure (correctly it would seem), that they're just too small and numerous for the Colt Shylocks to subdue. Either that or there's some legal loophole that allows marketers to get away with stuff that manufacturers can't.
HOWEVER... Just because Midway advertises a "Noveske AR-15 NST A3 Flat-Top Upper Assembly" that doesn't mean that it IS one, any more than the Chinese made "Rolax", watch is a Rolex.
You can argue parts interchangeability, quality and the accuracy with which it keeps time. Even if the counterfeit watch has parts that mesh perfectly with those of a real Rolex, keeps time with greater accuracy and can't be differentiated from a Rolex, even by an expert, IT AIN'T A ROLEX! It's not a "Rolex type" watch either, its as much a counterfeit as a perfectly reproduced 100 Dollar Bill.
Face it guys and gals, the "AR-15 type rifle" isn't the biggest selling rifle in America, it's a counterfeit pure and simple. Except for a constantly decreasing number of ancient Armalites and old AR-15's from the pre "self castration" days when Colt was a "Firearms Company", not a "Manufacturing Company".
The AR-15 is EXTINCT!
The "AR" in AR-15 originally stood for Armalite.
Since Colt purchased the rights to the name and design, I'll grant that Colt made rifles can be real AR-15s.
Unfortunately, although they have the right, they long ago lost the huevos to use it, as a quick browse through their online catalog will quickly show.
Now take a deep breath and let's say ALL the current Colt semi auto rifle models together real fast without stopping!
LE6940, LE6940P, LE6920SOCOM, LE6920, AR6720, AR6450, LE6920MP-FDE, AR6721, LE6920MP-B, LE6920CMP-B, LE6920CA, CR6720CA, CR6724CA, LE6940CA, MT6400, MT6400R, CR6720, CR6724, MT6731, MT6700 and last but not least the LE901-16S which doesn't really qualify since it's a .308. I just included it to show that nobody got left out.
Those of you who didn't actually pass out from lack of oxygen may have noticed that there wasn't an AR-15 mentioned.
Even though Colt no longer really wants or uses the AR-15 moniker they employ a mean pack of snappy lawyers to make sure no other manufacturers do either, kinda like a wolverine messin' on the food he's too stuffed to eat, just to make sure nothin' ELSE gets any good out of it.
Armalite makes AR-10s, AR-30s and AR-50s, but they don't make a single AR-15, that's a Colt brand. They make M-15s instead
From Daniel Defense, who makes M4's, DMP's, LWP's, PRP's, and SSP's all the way down to Century International Arms who make yet another M-15, proving that Armalite lawyers these days aren't near as good at copyright protection as their predecessors were, or maybe they stole the name from Century, or maybe they BOTH stole it from some mom and pop gun maker, I dunno, if you want good legal info, watch Judge Judy.
The point is that you can't find a single manufacturer of AR-15's left in America, probably in the whole world outside of a few shady Chinese factories that also produce genuine Rolax watches and Soney TV sets
Now MARKETERS, they're a different story altogether! They'll happily advertise a Noveske, Daniel Defense or Armalite AR-15, I guess they figure (correctly it would seem), that they're just too small and numerous for the Colt Shylocks to subdue. Either that or there's some legal loophole that allows marketers to get away with stuff that manufacturers can't.
HOWEVER... Just because Midway advertises a "Noveske AR-15 NST A3 Flat-Top Upper Assembly" that doesn't mean that it IS one, any more than the Chinese made "Rolax", watch is a Rolex.
You can argue parts interchangeability, quality and the accuracy with which it keeps time. Even if the counterfeit watch has parts that mesh perfectly with those of a real Rolex, keeps time with greater accuracy and can't be differentiated from a Rolex, even by an expert, IT AIN'T A ROLEX! It's not a "Rolex type" watch either, its as much a counterfeit as a perfectly reproduced 100 Dollar Bill.
Face it guys and gals, the "AR-15 type rifle" isn't the biggest selling rifle in America, it's a counterfeit pure and simple. Except for a constantly decreasing number of ancient Armalites and old AR-15's from the pre "self castration" days when Colt was a "Firearms Company", not a "Manufacturing Company".
The AR-15 is EXTINCT!
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