Accidental discharge 1911.....Help...Killed the stuffed bear on the bed.

I'm curious as to the purpose of the thumb safety then.

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In 1910, eight pistols were submitted to the Army Ordnance Board for evaluation. None of those pistols had thumb safeties. They were returned with a request from the US Cavalry for the addition of a "Manual, slide-locking" safety. Six of the eight were so modified...returned...and the rest is history.

Why did the cavalry ask for a manual safety?

So that a horse-mounted trooper could safely reholster the piece when he found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, unruly horse. Even in those unenlightened days, the thinking heads understood that a man under stress stood a good chance of leaving his finger on the trigger when jamming the pistol into the holster.

"Slide Locking" because jamming a pistol into a holster under battlefield conditions could push the slide out of battery, possibly not returning when the pistol was redrawn, leaving the embattled cavalryman with a non-firing weapon.

"Cocked and locked, the way that JMB intended!" has become a popular mantra. Unfortunately, it has no basis in fact.

Here is a picture of one of the remaining two original 1910 Colts in existence. Photo courtesy of Charles W. Clawson.

In 2010, eight pistols were submitted to the Army Ordnance Board for evaluation. None of those pistols had thumb safeties. They were returned with a request from the US Cavalry for the addition of a "Manual, slide-locking" safety. Six of the eight were so modified...returned...and the rest is history.

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Dang, I didn't even know the US Cavalry still existed in 2010, much less that they had a competition for a new pistol! I thought the last time they had any influence was a century or so ago.

That's very interesting. I've read the FM from 1912 (revised 1914) which advises against carrying the pistol cocked and locked "except in an emergency" or "if it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay.." That leaves a certain degree of ambiguity but the source is a US Army field manual (rather than John Browning) and came later than your reference. I appreciate your input and ought to read up more on the subject.

I'll revise my point and say I believe it is safer to carry a 1911 cocked and locked than it is to make a habit of lowering the hammer on a live round.

I've often said that when the day comes that I no longer have the manual dexterity or the presence of mind to manipulate a hammer without shooting myself in the foot...I'll sell the guns and take up golf.

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That has just touched on one of my pet peeves. Are you aware that by the time you have lost the presence of mind to safely manipulate a hammer there is a good chance that you will no longer have enough presence of mind to recognize that fact?

Don't believe me? Look at all the bad senior drivers on the road. I would bet anything I have that at one time or another the majority of them said roughly the same thing about driving that you said about operating your guns, yet they lack the awareness to realize they are now bad drivers.

Doc. Step back and take a breath.

2010. Now that there is funny.

I never got my question answered. How are the OP's ears? How loud does a .45ACP seem inside a house?

2010...Whoops! Good catch. I didn't even notice that.

Corrected.

A .45 going off inside a small room is...Loud. Go shoot on an indoor range without hearing protection to find out just how loud. You won't wanna do it twice.

I'll revise my point and say I believe it is safer to carry a 1911 cocked and locked than it is to make a habit of lowering the hammer on a live round.

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Probably. Guns "go off" unintentionally when somebody is handling them...not when they're in the holster or laying on a table. The less time spent monkey-fingering a loaded gun, the lower your chances of a discharge. This is why we strive to be mindful of our movements whenever we handle guns...loaded or not.

Or as has been so often noted:

Is gun. Gun not safe.

As an interesting side-note...in the 1910 patents, Browning clearly identifies the half-cock as a "Safety Position" and gives instruction on lowering the hammer to that position with one hand.

That's very interesting. I've read the FM from 1912 (revised 1914) which advises against carrying the pistol cocked and locked "except in an emergency" or "if it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay.."

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Exactly. As with any other weapon, the protocol has always been to maintain it with the bolt locked on an empty chamber until "Line of departure! Lock and load!" is given. This, whether the weapon is rifle, pistol...or a 105 howitzer.

Forgot to add

I trust the safety of the 1911's so much that I still carry them "mexican style",meaning in the pants with NO holster.

It is a very good way to fully conceal a full sized pistol in the summer and covered by nothing more than a 'T' shirt.

I wear a 'wife beater' under the 'T' shirt for comfort,and I can honestly say it is hidden from even the best gun checkers.

I normally wear a Skip Ritchie or Lou Alessi [ when he was alive ] holster in cooler weather.

The DOJ or the Askins Avenger style suit me well.

A 1911 has at least three safeties that are defeated by putting it IN or OUT of Condition 2. I can't remember if I have EVER lowered the hammer on a LIVE round in a 1911. It either stays locked, or the round in the chamber is ejected without ever touching either the trigger or the hammer.
Following these guidelines, the 1911 is possibly the safest auto pistol in existence!

Hearing loss is cumulative. A single gunshot in a average sized room is not going to cause noticeable long-term damage. But do it enough and the damage will irreversible.

scaatylobo said:

I trust the safety of the 1911's so much that I still carry them "mexican style",meaning in the pants with NO holster.

It is a very good way to fully conceal a full sized pistol in the summer and covered by nothing more than a 'T' shirt.

I wear a 'wife beater' under the 'T' shirt for comfort,and I can honestly say it is hidden from even the best gun checkers.
.

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Have you attempted to conceal it with a good IWB holster? I am sorry but a quality holster will conceal it better and more securely IMHO. You have to leave too much of the gun outside and above the waistband for "Mexican" style, it is nowhere near as good as holstered

Kleanbore said:

That remained as SOP for the duration of the service life of the pistol.

Note that when one carries a concealed weapon for self defense, one does desire to have "the pistol ready for instant use and for firing with the least possible delay."

Without question.

Might I suggest that it is also safer to carry a 1911 cocked and locked than it is to carry any pistol that lacks both a thumb safety and a grip safety with a round in the chamber.

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I agree with your points. However, when I was issued a 1911 briefly, I carried it cocked and locked any time I left the wire; so as far as SOP goes maybe I did it wrong.

I have loved reading this thread. It has also reminded me of the way I carry my 1911. I have owned and carried several 1911's condition 1 for years. I have practiced draw and carry for years as well - BUT - this is a reality check for one that takes carrying my 1911 as a self defense pistol. I also carry a Glock 22 for primary carry and a p239 for deeper concealment or back up. Lots of differences that I have learned comfort with over some time.

The really important thing I have learned is that shooting large stuffed animals in the nads should be done often and with great glee - but on purpose and outside.

Glad no one got hurt. Tell GD your sorry again and again and again - etc! Smile

Took a lot of guts to post what you did on a gun forum.

That's a very hard way to learn an important lesson.

Glad you, and nobody else, was not injured or killed.

The part of the field manual that has always amused me, given modern practice, is this (from the 1940 edition):

"If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use
for firing the maximum number of shots with the least
possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand
into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then
lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety
lock upward and insert a loaded magazine."

Nowadays, of course, we are enjoined not to do that, but rather to chamber a round from the magazine and then top off the magazine.

What JMB intended a hundred years ago, and what practices the services recommend, historically or at present, is not always what a non-military user may want or need.

Something else to take into consideration is that the 1911 was used by more than one service, and by more than one branch within the respective services. These organizations sometimes had different ideas of how the pistol should be handled. For example, here is what the Landing-Force Manual, United States Navy, 1927 has to say:

Care and Handling

11-42. When the slide is in its forward position and the hammer is full cocked push the safety-lock up to lock the hammer.

11-43. The grip safety at all times automatically locks the trigger unless the grip safety is pressed in by firmly grasping the handle as in the firing position.

When the slide is drawn fully back to its rear position, if the magazine is empty the slide stop automatically locks the slide in its open position; if the magazine is not empty, and there is no jam, the slide when released will spring to its forward position unless it is locked by pressing the slide stop up into the recess on the slide.

When the pistol is fired and the slide remains open, it indicates either that that magazine is empty or that there is a jam.

To relieve a jam it is often necessary to remove the magazine.

To remove the magazine, press the magazine catch.

11-44. To load, charge the magazine with any number of cartridges from one to seven (with five for a string in the Navy courses); insert the magazine into the hollow of the handle with a quick continuous movement until the click of the magazine catch is heard; then draw the slide fully back and release it, thus cocking the pistol and bringing the first cartridge into the chamber. The pistol is now ready for firing.

11-45. With the magazine empty, the pistol can be used as a single loader by drawing back the slide, inserting a cartridge in the chamber, and pressing down the slide stop to release the slide.

11-46. After the pistol is single loaded (and locked as a safety precaution), a filled magazine may be inserted; the pistol then carries eight cartridges ready for use.

It is dangerous, however, to carry the pistol thus loaded, and except in emergencies, the pistol should be carried with the chamber empty. When cartridges are in the magazine, to cock, load the chamber, and fully prepare the pistol for use it is only necessary to draw the slide fully to the rear and release it.

11-47. Pressure must be entirely relieved from the trigger after each shot in order that the trigger may reengage the sear.

11-48. To inspect a pistol to see that it is unloaded, or to unload it, draw the slide to the rear and release it as often as is necessary until it automatically remains in the open position. If loaded, each time the slide is drawn to the rear a cartridge will be ejected.

What JMB intended a hundred years ago, and what practices the services recommend, historically or at present, is not always what a non-military user may want or need.

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Which brings us back to what I alluded to.

It was designed so that it can be carried cocked and locked, but it wasn't designed specifically to be carried that way.

In short, it allows several modes of readiness, as the user chooses. No more. No less.

As far as modern techniques go, there are many who insist that the slidestop should never be used to release the slide...but it was designed and intended to be used for that. That's why it stands proud of the frame and has checkering...the same reason that the hammer has checkering.(The slidestop actually has five functions, but that's meat for another discussion.)

Might I suggest that it is also safer to carry a 1911 cocked and locked than it is to carry any pistol that lacks both a thumb safety and a grip safety with a round in the chamber.

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Care to elaborate on that? Im pretty sure that if you keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to shoot, neither would be "safer" than the other.

The big issue as I see it and its my own opinion now is did you have the correct license to shoot stuffed bears?