9mm Defense rounds #2

Ballistic
Pressure
Wave

Hard to define "The Best" SD Ammo as it is dependent on so many variables including objectivity (or a lack thereof). That said, I feel entirely confident/comfortable using 9mm +P Hornady CRITICAL DUTY 135 gr JHP in my guns. I trust this fellow's reviews and overall ballistic testing methodology:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZFZFmBKa0

-Happy Thanksgiving

CZ57 said:

Duncan MacPherson is an MIT educated engineer as well as a disciple of Martin Fackler who's emphasis is little more than penetration being the answer to the question of handgun stopping power with nothing really new or persuasive on the issue.

Better to look at the research conducted by an MIT educated PHd in physics who can describe exactly what the effects of energy are and not just theorize with nothing more conclusive than gelatin testing. There have been 33 autopsies conducted that conclude that Dr. Courtney is on to something very important to those who will listen. I encourage anyone who can drop their bias for a second and consider the information presented to look at: http://www.btgresearch.org/wb.htm

And as to regards concerning the .357 SIG, it is the caliber used by the Texas DPS and the US Secret Sevice. No other agency has more actual gunfighting experience than the Texas DPS/Rangers. That's a historical fact rather than a biased opinion. Take a look at the results at www.m4carbine.net, it's pretty clear what loads perform and what doesn't and this from a listing advocated by another Fackler disciple, Dentist "Doc" Roberts.

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Conspicuously absent from the website you linked to is the fact that Courtney never contracted with a military branch/LEA to perform terminal ballistic research.

FWIW, I personally asked Courtney this question before he began using the pseudonym of Pasteur.

Godsgunman said:

Alright, not sure if I'll be tarred and feathered for this or not, but I'm not a big fan of the "FBI standard testing". Sure the calibrated gelatin probably gives a decent enough representation of soft tissue penetration. For me personally that doesn't mean much. I would like to see more data with rib/bone penetration. Lets face it, if you hit where you are taught (COM) then the bullet will most likely have to penetrate sternum and/or ribs plus far enough to severly damage the heart or lungs. From the small testing that I have done personally has lead me to the conclusion that while the ideal is to have both good expansion and penetration, I lean more towards the penetration factor. I have learned through my own testing through my main carry gun that Hornady XTP for instance is not a good choice for me, great expansion but to little penetration for my likings.
The data we get from the FBI and similar tests are good for what they are worth. The best advise I can say is to do your own tests and see what works best for what you want it to accomplish with the gun you will be using it in.

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I also enjoy bullet testing through a multitude of different intermediate barriers, including bone. While it would be better to use fresh cow or pig bones from a slaughter house, dried out range cow bones are more economical and abundant for me to test; plus these bones are very demanding on bullet design/construction.

Here's an active link to bullet bone tests, post #1 includes the Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7484901#post7484901

If there's enough interest, I can do more 9mm bone tests.

mavracer said:

You guys don't seem to be applying simple medical knowledge to your assertions.

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Hypovolemic shock and CNS damage are the only mechanisms that reliably produce incapacitation. That is a medical fact.

mavracer said:

...yet some animals (humans are animals too after all) are imediatly incapcitated from a chest shot even though there is no direct CNS damage.

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The effect you are describing is that of a sudden and precipitous drop in blood pressure. Same appearance as fainting or passing out- the subject drops straight to the ground and is unable to perform any intentional dynamic action. That comes from a huge violation of a major vascular structure or organ- not from a few microscopic tears in a few tiny blood vessels.

mavracer said:

BPW and the temporary wound channel are both very much capable of being signifigant means of incapcitation.

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That is unproven at best.

mavracer said:

Fackler was a fool to claim 2000fps was a magic # for TWC to be meaningful, when he should have known dang good and well that 1500 is more than enough for TWC to be meaningful and yet 3000 doesn't guarentee that TWC will be meaningful.

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This amounts to a definite "maybe".

mavracer said:

For the record I'm definately not advocating using energy as an important determining factor. Placement, penatration and expansion all take precident but to ignore it or say it's not a factor is IMHO foolish.

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It is OK to ignore such an unreliable and improbable effect when considering the real world performance of self-defense ammo- that being, the immediate incapacitation of someone who is going to do you grave/lethal injury. Other than that we agree that placement, penetration, and expansion are the most important- heck, you even listed those factors in the same exact order I would've.

2zulu1 said:

Conspicuously absent from the website you linked to is the fact that Courtney never contracted with a military branch/LEA to perform terminal ballistic research.

FWIW, I personally asked Courtney this question before he began using the pseudonym of Pasteur.

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Also of interest is that both Dr Fackler and Dr Roberts have been employed in that capacity by several different organizations under that category both having worked at Letterman Army Institue of Research, Division of Military Trauma Research and a few others.

The papers written by the Courtneys' are probably the best evidence that BPW doesn't mean anything in service handgun calibers. Unless the most common and popular rounds and handgun combinations in use are generating 500 ft lbs at impact with 1000+ psi. Their proposed ideal rounds either penetrate a minimum 10 inches before violent fragmentation, or are charged with an explosive compound. Courtney posted as much and acknowledged the legal issues with such. I think they are right in their notion that exploding projectiles are more effective, that rounds impacting with the force of high powered rifles cause more remote damage, and that a revolution in materials engineering that would allow deep penetration before explosive fragmentation would increase effectiveness.

I see nothing that says or suggests the current service calibers effect any of this out of handguns, or that the smaller and faster calibers out there do any better with any reliability. The YT videos of gel testing for 5.7 don't give the required 10 inches of penetration before fragmentation, and the rounds can also fail to fragment at all if it is a denim test. I don't think anyone feels an AR/AK pistol is going to become an officer's sidearm.

It seems the most the Courtneys could argue for was that BPW may have some measurable effect on nerve tissue remote to the wound track under high magnification, but not that it reliably speeds up incapacitation. The use of M&S without removing voluntary stops where the individual shot gave up but was still conscious and capable of action skews the numbers terribly. They also have a mathematical model that shows the M&S percentages to be too high unless the rounds reliably and repeatedly fragmented in the vicinity of vital organs. We don't have handguns that do this.

Their numbers are really a 'no duh' kind of situation, that bigger, faster rounds do more damage. The problem is carrying the delivery platform and reliably/repeatedly putting the rounds on target without breaking your wrist or going deaf/blind.

I have 147 HSTs in a full size CZ and 124+P PDX in sub compact. I just bought both, plus plenty of other ammo, including 147 WWB.

CZ57 writes:

Duncan MacPherson is an MIT educated engineer as well as a disciple of Martin Fackler who's emphasis is little more than penetration being the answer to the question of handgun stopping power with nothing really new or persuasive on the issue.

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There are other factors involved in producing reliable rapid incapacitation. Your prejudice blinds you to other equally important factors that have been well articulated by Fackler:

1) Adequate penetration.
2) To reach and damage vitals that are critical to immediate survival.
3) Amount of damage produced in critical tissues (wound severity).

Reliable rapid incapacitation is caused only by what vital structure(s) a JHP handgun bullet comes into direct contact with and how much damage it produces to that structure (wound severity). TYPE of tissue and AMOUNT of damage are what's important.

CZ57 writes:

I agree. The first meaningful (to me) information that I've seen is the work done by BTG Research that explains what the effect of kinetic energy actually means in wound ballistics. http://www.btgresearch.org/wb.htm

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It’s interesting that every medical professional that has taken the time to review the Courtneys’ papers have unanimously stated that the references cited by the Courtneys’ do not support the claims made:


CZ57 writes:

And as to regards concerning the .357 SIG, it is the caliber used by the Texas DPS and the US Secret Sevice. No other agency has more actual gunfighting experience than the Texas DPS/Rangers. That's a historical fact rather than a biased opinion. Take a look at the results at www.m4carbine.net, it's pretty clear what loads perform and what doesn't and this from a listing advocated by another Fackler disciple, Dentist "Doc" Roberts.

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The wound profile of 125gr .357SIG is more like 9mm 147gr than .357 Magnum 125gr. The reason is because the .357SIG bullet is specifically designed to remain intact at higher velocity. .357SIG’s greater kinetic energy is expended in making the (expansion-resistant) bullet expand. The result is a temporary cavity not much larger in diameter than 9mm 147gr. The reason why Texas DPS changed from .45 ACP to .357SIG is because it penetrates light barrier materials better.

Originally Posted by C0untZer0

I don't think MacPherson was or is a "disciple" of Fackler. They were working in two different fields and MacPherson wrote his critique of the American Rifleman article in 1975, in which he crticized the Relative Incapacitation Index (RII)

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It’s titled “Relative Incapacitation BULListics”. It was reprinted in IWBA Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1, Number 2. PM me if you’d like a copy.

481 writes:

Also of interest is that both Dr Fackler and Dr Roberts have been employed in that capacity by several different organizations under that category both having worked at Letterman Army Institue of Research, Division of Military Trauma Research and a few others.

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FYI: Roberts was never “worked” at LAIR. Roberts works at Stanford University just south of San Francisco and he visited Fackler and conducted some experiments at LAIR.

"bpw" ?Borland Pascal for Windows?
Board of Public Works?
Basal Pulse Width?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

This is a great discussion, learning a lot. Thanks.

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Pascal for wound ballistics. LOL. Of course it is Ballistic Pressure Wave. LOL

There are other factors involved in producing reliable rapid incapacitation. Your prejudice blinds you to other equally important factors that have been well articulated by Fackler:

1) Adequate penetration.
2) To reach and damage vitals that are critical to immediate survival.
3) Amount of damage produced in critical tissues (wound severity).

Reliable rapid incapacitation is caused only by what vital structure(s) a JHP handgun bullet comes into direct contact with and how much damage it produces to that structure (wound severity). TYPE of tissue and AMOUNT of damage are what's important.

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Perhaps you're wearing the wrong sunglasses. Show me one single case where I have disagreed with 1, 2 or 3. What I am saying is that many of us long-time defensive oriented shooters have believed that there is a quantifiable reason for the importance of KE in wound ballistics and it has been defined by Dr. Courtney as the Ballistic Pressure Wave. In short summary it is a JHP bullet that impacts the thoracic cavity with 500 Ft/Lbs of KE with a penetration depth of 10" that sends a damaging wave to the brain measured at 1000 PSI of Traumatic Brain Injury, or TBI. And as for other opinions, there was research conducted by others like Sorensen et al that preceded Martin Fackler yet he chose to ignore it. If you review the information provided by Courtney you will see that he in fact does have endorsements from MDs which he really doesn't need in light of the fact that 33 autopsies have been conducted to make his claims pretty convincing for BPW. The evidence is the long standing record of the 125 gr. JHP in .357 Magnum. The selection of the .357 SIG by the US Secret Service and more importantly the Texas DPS/Rangers who have more actual gunfighting experience than any LE agency in American history and my personal defense choice, the 185 gr. +P Golden Saber with a momentum of 30 and 534 Ft/Lbs of KE.

His wife, also a PHd in physics is a member of the faculty at the US Military Academy at West Point.

This isn't going to turn into another pissing contest, is it?
I want to hear more about more different loads for my 9 wussimeter.

CZ57 writes:

Show me one single case where I have disagreed with 1, 2 or 3.

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You consistently omit 2 & 3 in your rants.

CZ57 writes:

And as for other opinions, there was research conducted by others like Sorensen et al that preceded Martin Fackler yet he chose to ignore it.

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I suspect you meant "Suneson" and not "Sorenson"?

Fackler (and others) have pointed out, in the wound ballistics literature, numerous errors in Suneson's work. One Fackler paper, "The 'Shock Wave' Myth", was published in a 1989 issue of the Journal or Trauma that identified errors in Suneson et al.'s paper ""Pressure wave injuries to rat dorsal root ganglion cells in culture caused by high-energy missiles." (Fackler's paper also addresses errors in Suneson et al: "Pressure wave injuries to the nervous system caused by high-energy missile extremity impacts: Part I. Local and distant effects on the peripheral nervous system -- a light and electron microscopic study on pigs", and "Pressure wave injuries to the nervous system caused by high-energy missile extremity impacts: Part II. Distant effects on the central nervous system -- a light and electron microscopic study on pigs.")

It appears to me that, contrary to your assertion, Fackler did not "choose to ignore" Suneson et al.

No pissing contest. As I have said before, the 124 gr. +P Gold Dot has higher KE and MOMENTUM than a standard pressure 147 gr. JHP. The 127 gr. Ranger +P+ load has even more of both. No one here can argue against momentum even if you discount KE. Ultimately, it comes down to the shooters ability to place rounds on target. Personally, I can't understand anyone having issue with shooting +P 124 gr. JHPs in 9mm but consider what I actually carry and almost 35 years of shooting big bore Magnums. My favorite being the .41 Magnum. to me, with proper practice the 124 gr. +P Gold Dot is a pussycat but that's what gets loaded in my 9mm pistols for defense.

Shawn Dodson said:

It’s titled “Relative Incapacitation BULListics”. It was reprinted in IWBA Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1, Number 2. PM me if you’d like a copy.

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Thanks, Shawn, PM sent.

You consistently omit 2 & 3 in your rants.

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Rants? whose ranting now? Like I said, Show me one single case where I've disagreed with necessary penetration to reach vitals or amount of tissue damage. You really call yourself an instructor of pistolcraft? Prove your statement. What I would actually strive for in a self defense shooting scenario would be well placed shots to severe the spinal column. Simple COM like I was properly instructed. After that it would be enough KE to cause 1000 PSI of traumatic brain injury. I actually have taken it a step further if you'd really bothered to pay attention. I feel that the temporary stretch cavity is very underated by Fackler, Roberts and MacPherson.

Thanks for the correction. My wife is the Swede in the house whereas I am merely Norman English. Fackler hasn't provided anything of importance to the issue. Instead, he led the FBI down the rosy path of ammunition failures with the subsonic over-penetrating poor expanding 147 gr. JHP in 9mm of the late 80s. The over-penetrating poor expanding 10mm "Lite" that followed and for an encore, it was the "medium velocity" 165 gr. JHP in .40 S&W. And if he had bothered to consult Suneson et al he would have seen the error of his ways. Instead, he began his own rant against M&S and their flawed data gathering who may not have been aware of the significance of the BPW, but nonetheless, Ed Sanow theorized a long time ago that the ideal range of KE for defensive rounds was 400 - 600 Ft/Lbs and never argued against the merits of penetration that Fackler was so obsessed with. Do you really believe in the Flying Drill Bit theorum of Fackler and his disciples? Even he has changed his tune last time I saw him and very much advocates expansion with penetration, he just doesn't domprehend the BPW theorum evidenced by the fact that he ignored Suneson as well as others referenced by Dr. Courtney.

I prefer +p 124s in 9mm.
I'm used to shooting a Charter Bulldog .44 Spl, so a 9 is very soft shooting.

As much as I like my Bulldog, my SR9 holds 12 more rounds and the 9 is a much better SD round than it was 20 years ago.
I have no delusions of the 9 being a better manstopper than the .44 Spl Gold Dot, but I think it'll do just fine.

CZ57 writes:

English. Fackler hasn't provided anything of importance to the issue. Instead, he led the FBI down the rosy path of ammunition failures with the subsonic over-penetrating poor expanding 147 gr. JHP in 9mm of the late 80s. The over-penetrating poor expanding 10mm "Lite" that followed and for an encore, it was the "medium velocity 165 gr. JHP in .40 S&W.

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I addressed, last month, the exact same misinformation you're posting in this thread. See - http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8485892&postcount=94

Jaymo, unlike some I don't pretend that I have the definitive answer, yet I would agree with you for a number of reasons. If anyone wants to take it a step further than what a good 124 gr. +P JHP will do in 9mm, they'd better be prepared to deal with the extra recoil generated by the 147 gr. +P JHP that puts the 9mm on an even playing field with the .40 S&W.

I addressed, last month, the exact same misinformation you're posting in this thread. See - http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....2&postcount=94

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Again, you fail to show where I disagree with points 1, 2 or 3. Why don't you try to argue the facts I presented concerning Martin Fackler's track record that led the FBI to 3 ammunition failures? That is on the record. Personally, in light of your failure to prove anything you've accused me of, I wouldn't recommend anyone spend $.10 cents for your training or supposed expertise.

I'm also a huge fan of .45 ACP. I've never owned a .40, and don't plan on it. I have big, fat, and heavy. I have small, fast, and hicap.
I don't need to complicate my ammo supply logistics by adding something in the middle.

Despite my love of .45 ACP, Nobody makes a 17 round .45 that's the size of an SR9.

As far as handgun stopping power goes, I think we can all agree that the best handgun round is a piss poor substitute for a 12 gauge shotgun.
It's just a matter of what we can actually carry every day.
I just can't seem to fit a cop in my holster.

Jaymo, there you go! I would suggest though that you take a hard look at the SA XDm in .45 ACP. 14 rounds of .45 ACP in whatever configyration you like best. Nonetheless, I don't feel handicapped in using a 9mm loaded with 124 gr. +P Gold Dots and my money is where my mouth is as that's exactly what I use, or a handload that surpasses the performance of factory ammo, but that's another story. Nothing in handgun rounds beats a 12 gauge in any case.

CZ57 writes:

Again, you fail to show where I disagree with points 1, 2 or 3.

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It appears there's a misunderstanding. I pointed out that you consistently omit any mention of 2 & 3. Examples:


So you acknowledge there's more to "Fackler's theory" than just penetration? It appears you agree that "Fackler's theory" consists of adequate penetration to reliably reach and damage vitals critical to immediate survival, and the type of tissues damaged and amount of damage produced determines rapidity of physiological incapacitation?