Is a zinc alloy frame as strong as polymer?

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The ZAMAK alloy used in firearms is far from mystery "pot metal". It is a very consistant and carefully formulated metal, with a yield strength over 30,000 psi.
 
mr.trooper said:
The ZAMAK alloy used in firearms is far from mystery "pot metal". It is a very consistant and carefully formulated metal, with a yield strength over 30,000 psi.
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This.

Zamak isn't the same as your average "pot metal" which most ignorant (not stupid, there is a difference) people seem to believe. It is a decent material when used within its limits. Hi Point even makes a .45acp that while definitely ugly and huge, seems to work pretty well for alot of people.
 
it's called "pot" metal for a reason.
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Yes, it is. But probably not the reason you're trying to assert.

The Brady Campaign IS the reason you call "Ring of Fire" guns SNS and not just imported guns that were banned
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"Ring of fire" had nothing to do with imported guns. It refers to a half dozen manufacturers in California.
 
Meh I'm done trying to explain because I'm having trouble articulating what I actually mean. I was trying to explain that the Brady Campaign was instrumental in labeling any zamak pistol as a dangerous Saturday Night Special that was only useful in crime.

They used to be on the news all the time raving about how they were so scary because anyone can afford one and even the gun loving crowd ate it up at the time. The rumors that a Hi Point will blow off your hand didn't even go away until a few years back.

I am aware that the original term was coined before the ROF was even thought of and have been since before I posted anything here. Anyways I'm going to go away now because I know what I mean but can't put it into words.
 
The sad thing about this thread is that somewhere out there is a clueless individual who will make this conversion. The only hope is that it happens before he contributes to the gene pool. Stupidity like this should be eliminated.

I am glad; however, that the OP asked rather than experimented. Smart move.
 
No harm in asking. Was curious as these guns where marketed as being basically interchangeable with most standard 1911 parts. Recently saw that they started selling the GSG .22 slides, barrel and mags as a package for .45 1911 so i just had to ask. Pieces looked identical.
 
But, the Tupperware pistols all have steel, and/or aluminum slide rails and frame inserts.
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Actually not all of them do. The Ruger P95 's frame has no inserts and the slide rides right on the polymer. I'm pretty sure the same is true of the S&W Sigma.
 
mgmorden said:
Actually not all of them do. The Ruger P95 's frame has no inserts and the slide rides right on the polymer. I'm pretty sure the same is true of the S&W Sigma.
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Hi Point C9 also. The difference is that those guns were designed to ride on polymer rails. The zamak frame was designed for low powered rounds, swapping a large caliber slide would make it pretty unsafe given that it wasn't designed to handle it.
 
Where are you getting that the glass filled nylon has such a high yield strength? I've never seen anything showing more than a tensile strength of 30,000 psi.
 
The Ruger P95 's frame has no inserts and the slide rides right on the polymer. I'm pretty sure the same is true of the S&W Sigma.
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I'm pretty certain the block that incorporates the rear recoil spring housing and frame rails on a P95 is steel.

The Sigma has steel inserts.
 
Ruger's .45 ACP Polymer Auto Pistol
by Dick Metcalf
Technical Editor
Shooting Times
Category: Gun Reviews

August 24, 2001



The P97 frame material itself is a custom compounded, high-strength polymer with a long-strand fiberglass filler, which, as the company says, serves as “a natural shock absorber.” This filler interweaves during molding to produce some of the highest tensile and stiffness strengths available in an injection-molded material. The urethane-based resin that binds the filler together is corrosion and solvent resistant, lightweight, and compatible with most gun oils and lubricants.



n terms of mechanical operation, the P97 barrel tilts to lock and unlock, Browning-style—as do all P-Series pistols. However, the P97 uses a camblock system to cause this motion, instead of the 1911-type toggle-link employed on other P-Series gun. During the firing cycle, the P97 barrel is accelerated to a high speed as it moves back and down to unlock from the slide. Once it leaves contact with the slide, the barrel must be brought to a stop. As Ruger puts it in the P97 information release, “a novel system allows us to do so without impact damage to the polymer frame.” Novel, indeed. “Unique” or “innovative” would be more how I would put it since the P97 system is nothing like what Ruger uses on its polymer-frame 9mm P95.

The effect of barrel (and slide) impact has been a major engineering problem for polymer-frame autoloader designers since the moment Gaston Glock woke up from the middle of a good night’s sleep with the original “plastic gun” idea floating through his head. Many different ideas have been tried and discarded, and a wide variety of different solutions are used by various manufacturers for their varying-caliber, current-production polymer-frame pistols. For high slide/barrel-acceleration loads like the .45 ACP, the most common systems involve either a separate metal “recoil block” or camblock of some sort set into the polymer frame, or some type of cushioning system involving the recoil spring/guide rod assembly (or a combination of both). The P97 takes those concepts a step further.

The frontstrap, backstrap, and both sides of the P97’s slim polymer frame have molded-in grooves to provide a controlled grip.
On the P97 the linkless camming surfaces that guide and pull the unlocking barrel downward from the slide and absorb the impact of the barrel’s rearward recoil acceleration are an integral part of the rear portion of the recoil spring guide rod itself. In fact, this part—which on any other autoloader would be called the guide rod—Ruger calls the camblock (there is no part actually called a “guide rod” anywhere in the P97). The thing looks like an ordinary full-length guide rod with a big, cam-ramped lug on the end, and it’s a really neat design. The camblock is held in the frame by the crosspin of the slide stop. In firing, the barrel comes backward, is pulled away from the slide by the camming ramp, and is stopped by the recoil-spring-enclosed camblock, with no direct impact against the frame at all. It’s a slick idea. And it works. Plus the P97 still disassembles and reassembles in a completely conventional manner, just like any other P-Series pistol.
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I'm pretty certain the block that incorporates the rear recoil spring housing and frame rails on a P95 is steel.
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Nope. All polymer. Looking at it in my hands right now ;).

BTW I'm not in any way suggesting that the OP's idea is sound. Just stating that there are some polymer pistols out there designed such that the slide rides on the polymer frame and not steel inserts. I knew my M&P and Glock had steel inserts, but was pretty sure and just confirmed that my P95 did not.
 
Kiln said:
Hi Point C9 also. The difference is that those guns were designed to ride on polymer rails. The zamak frame was designed for low powered rounds, swapping a large caliber slide would make it pretty unsafe given that it wasn't designed to handle it.
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As does the CZ-100 (and possibly the CZ-101, though we'll probably never see any 101's imported into these fine United States).
 
Crap.

Seriously, I just spent an hour doing math and correcting my somewhat faulty post that I deleted for being inaccurate and it did not post. I am uttering some magnificent curse words at my iPad right now.

Short answer, my numbers were off in my last post, but nylon 6 has a higher strength to weight ratio, thus making it the stronger material despite its slightly LOWER tensile yield strength compared to Zamak 3.

So, my conclusion was correct, my data was not. I apologize.

Here is a picture of my notes before I started doing math any tapping my ultimately useless post:mad:
 

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Nope. All polymer. Looking at it in my hands right now ;)
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OK, I stand corrected. The only P-series I've owned was a P94 (Alloy frame), and it's been long time since looked at the frame of a P95 (A gun which has zero appeal to me, hence I've payed little attention to them)

All the P-series guns feel like they're cycling in slow motion (especially the P90), which lends more to the already clunky feel of them. Reliable and reasonably accurate, but downright goofy guns in terms of handling.
 
The ZAMAK alloy used in firearms is far from mystery "pot metal". It is a very consistant and carefully formulated metal, with a yield strength over 30,000 psi.
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That is not bad for a zinc based material but compare to historic materials used in 03 Springfields and to 4140.


Receivers and bolts of SA, serial number 1,275,767
Material WD 2340
Treatment: Heat to 1425-1450 for five minutes in a salt bath, oil quench
Temper at 700 F for one-half hour and air cool
Hardness Rockwell C-40 to C-50.

Source: July-Aug 1928 issue Army Ordnance, “Heat Treatment and Finish of Small Arms at Springfield Armory

Mechanical Properties of AISI steels with various Heat-Treatments*

AISI 2340 normalized at 1600 F, quenched in oil at 1425 F *

Code: 
[SIZE="3"]Draw Temperature 	Tensile Strength 	Yield Point 	
600 F	                    222 kpsi	      205 kpsi
800 F	                   180 kpsi	      165 kpsi[/size]
*Source Mark’s Mechanical Engineers’ Handbook, sixth edition


Today’s receivers are often made of 4140. I picked a mid range heat treatment for comparison. For a 1 in round AISI 4140 Steel, Heat treatment normalized 870°C (1600°F), reheated 845°C (1550°F), oil quenched, tempered 595° (1100 F)

Hardness, Rockwell C 34 Converted from Brinell hardness.
Tensile Strength, Ultimate 148000 psi

Tensile Strength, Yield 132000 psi

Elongation at Break 19.0 %

I was told this heat treatment of 4140 was too hard for firearms applications, but I am putting down for reference.

For a 1 in round AISI 4140 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), reheated to 845°C (1550°F), oil quenched, 260°C (500°F) temper, ultimate strength 270,000 psi, yield 240,000 psi, elongation at break 11%, Rockwell C53.

You have to look at the load path to determine just how much load the material is carrying. The receiver or frame of a blowback is not carrying much load which is why they can use such low grade materials.
 
atblis said:
I wanted to say that, but resisted because I've never actually shot the PK380. P22 I have plenty of experience with its turdiness.
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My Raven MP25 and Phoenix HP22 work better than my Walther P22 ever did and both costed 1/3 of the price.
 
Sorry, Tim, but ZA-27 has a yield strength of 55,000 psi.
ZA-12, 46,000.
ZA-8, 42,000.
Where's this mystery Tupperware that's stronger than that? ;)

That said, there's no way in hell I'd convert a ZA framed 1911 into a .45 cal. If I want to commit suicide, I'll point the muzzle at my head, not the rear of the slide. :)
Recoil operation would be a lot harder on the frame than I'd be comfortable with.
It could be done. Safely, even. That level of strength is plenty for the application.
The problem is that it wouldn't last. It would fail, sooner or later. Probably sooner.
How many rounds could you crank off before the frame or slide failed?

Sounds like a great idea for some testing. My buddy has a Goobtube channel and wants me to make some vids with him.
I'm thinking I should convert one to .45 and remote fire it, to see how long it lasts. (not long, I'd guess)

In the words of the demo man on Team Fortress 2, KA-BEWM!!
 
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The issue is not zamak's strength but the fact that it is prone to cracking under stress from shock. A zamak framed gun will often crack after only a few hundred rounds of .380 acp but works fine for .22lr pistols as long as the design is correct.

You couldn't pay me to slap a .45acp slide onto a frame designed to fire .22lr and shoot it. There is a good chance of a rail shearing off and allowing you to be struck in the face by the slide.
 
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