The concept of 380 vs more powerful rounds

The underlying question is, "How much power do I need in my SD handgun?" The answer is, "Enough." [punctuation revised]

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There is another consideration regarding power: "How much power is too much?" For every shooter there is a limit.

There is no penalty for having more than needed.

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But there is. With the stress of being under attack, we're going to shoot less well than we do at the range no matter how good we think we are. Sending out-of-control uber-stopper rounds whizzing past the BG and into a child or an old lady probably may not save the shooter but will without a doubt cause much trouble of many kinds.

Given those little tidbits, would it not be prudent to carry a round that is less powerful than the most powerful you can shoot well under controlled conditions?

JR47, if expanded caliber didn't matter, everyone would be carrying a .22 LR with high velocity FMJ rounds. As it is, expanded caliber makes it SLIGHTLY more likely you will hit something vital that the other round misses. And it comes at a cost, generally a combination of recoil, platform size, and capacity.

For a comparison, in order to at least nick a 3 inch circle; a 0.65" diameter bullet can hit an area 18% larger than that of a 0.357" bullet and still hit the 3" circle.

The Kicker: There is no penalty for having more than needed. The penalties for having less than needed can be harsh, up to and including death.

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I disagree. More power always comes at a cost, including weight, recoil, size, and capacity. If there was no penalty for having more than needed, we'd all carry .50 AE desert eagles.

So the question becomes where is the happy medium. Where do you get the most power with the least additional cost. I believe that limit is where JHPs start to work well, and with the standard cartridges available, that is above the .380 and at the level of the 9.

ETA: Fixed the term "expanded velocity" to mean "expanded caliber". That's an interesting term I accidentally made.

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inb4 the lock

mavracer said:

How can you possibly know that every person that's going to try to kill you is so determined that they won't stop by seeing the gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom?

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How can YOU possibly know that the person trying to kill you will stop upon seeing your gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom?

If you believe your own post, then you must only carry blanks (muzzle flash/big boom) since that would works against the sissy badguys you are confident you'll be attacked by.

How can YOU possibly know that the person trying to kill you will stop upon seeing your gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom?

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I don't, but I do recognize that it's a possibility. Of course I also recognize they may not stop even though they may be fatally wounded, which is why I don't carry blanks.
I have also seen a boar run 200 yards after being shot with a 270 Win, with a heart that would have been no less functional if you'd have shot with a case of 9mm and a case of 380. So I'm not under any dilusions that a 9mm COM is any more likely to physicly stop the BG from shooting to slide lock from blood loss.

mavracer said:

I don't, but I do recognize that it's a possibility.

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As do I. Actually, just about everyone recognizes that possibility.

Of course I also recognize they may not stop even though they may be fatally wounded,

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As do I. Actually, just about everyone recognizes that possibility.

What was your "point" ?

David E
Which is it? post 118 you claim any person trying to kill you is "someone in particular really REALLY wants to kill YOU! Those people must be physically stopped, not stopped by seeing the gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom."
But now you say realize it is a possibility that the person trying to kill you may stop "by seeing the gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom."

beatledog7 said:

There is another consideration regarding power: "How much power is too much?" For every shooter there is a limit.



But there is. With the stress of being under attack, we're going to shoot less well than we do at the range no matter how good we think we are. Sending out-of-control uber-stopper rounds whizzing past the BG and into a child or an old lady probably may not save the shooter but will without a doubt cause much trouble of many kinds.

Given those little tidbits, would it not be prudent to carry a round that is less powerful than the most powerful you can shoot well under controlled conditions?

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I addressed skillset in the same post. Sorry if you did not read or comprehend it all.

Skribs said:

JR47, if expanded caliber didn't matter, everyone would be carrying a .22 LR with high velocity FMJ rounds. As it is, expanded caliber makes it SLIGHTLY more likely you will hit something vital that the other round misses. And it comes at a cost, generally a combination of recoil, platform size, and capacity.

For a comparison, in order to at least nick a 3 inch circle; a 0.65" diameter bullet can hit an area 18% larger than that of a 0.357" bullet and still hit the 3" circle.



I disagree. More power always comes at a cost, including weight, recoil, size, and capacity. If there was no penalty for having more than needed, we'd all carry .50 AE desert eagles.

So the question becomes where is the happy medium. Where do you get the most power with the least additional cost. I believe that limit is where JHPs start to work well, and with the standard cartridges available, that is above the .380 and at the level of the 9.

ETA: Fixed the term "expanded velocity" to mean "expanded caliber". That's an interesting term I accidentally made.

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See previous post.

Mavracer, just because something bigger failed to stop a target doesn't mean it is just as bad at stopping targets. If a car crashes through a brick wall, does that mean that brick is just as weak as drywall, because the car could have also crashed through drywall?

I'm not reading the whole thing, all I will add is that there are no guarantees. NONE. My unit in Afghanistan called in an air strike on some bad guys, and captured one of them in the next village with a 30mm hole through his shoulder.

No handgun is magical. Some people in here seem to think that a .380 will have no effect at all on an attacker, but any of the other service calibers will physically stop someone. This is total gibberish. The most likely outcome of ANY hit with a service caliber is that the target will RUN AWAY. Not fall over. Not explode. Not get knocked backwards.

I never said that a .380 EQUALS a 9mm. I said some loads (like the ones from Double-tap,) overlap into their range.

mljdeckard said:

I'm not reading the whole thing, all I will add is that there are no guarantees. NONE. My unit in Afghanistan called in an air strike on some bad guys, and captured one of them in the next village with a 30mm hole through his shoulder.

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Wow!

mavracer said:

David E
Which is it? post 118 you claim any person trying to kill you is "someone in particular really REALLY wants to kill YOU! Those people must be physically stopped, not stopped by seeing the gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom."
But now you say realize it is a possibility that the person trying to kill you may stop "by seeing the gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom."

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<sigh>. Once again mavracer misunderstands my response to another post. .

I do not plan to shoot a badguy who is actively trying to kill me once to "show I mean it," then again to "stop" them in case that first "hey! I'm serious here!" shot fails to convince the badguy I "really mean it." That's just plain stupid.

As I stated, each shot I fire will be with the goal of stopping the badguy as soon as possible.

Then, mavracer asks the curiously inane question of how can I possibly know the badguy won't stop when he sees my muzzle, sees the flash and/or hears the bang?

How can that possibly matter? The badguy is actively trying to kill me! That's why i want to shoot him!

What is he suggesting, that we should draw our nickel plated gun (for maximum visibility) count "one Mississippi, two Mississippi" to give the badguy a chance to run away? To buy the ammo with the biggest, brightest flash and loudest report to give the badguy a second chance to stop and run away if he wasn't impressed by the sight of my tactically nickeled defense gun?

My mindset is this: the badguy is making the decision for me as to if he's getting shot or not. If he poops his pants upon seeing my gun muzzle and runs away, I won't shoot him. If he does not.....

I like 380ACP out of a Baretta 84, good feel, seems like it would be effective enough. 9mm out of my Glock 26 or Glock 17 feels no more recoil and just as accurate.
I can practice 50% more with the 9mm than I can with the 380ACP. I think that makes a difference. I can carry the G26 with several different methods all day and not notice that it is there. I think that many people choose guns that are too small to use and practice with. Good ammo in 9, 40 or 45 meet the FBI specs, 380ACP does not (for the most part).

David, you and I are at odds in some other posts, but I agree with you in this post.

Teachu2,

I read #126 and comprehended it fully. You wrote:

Toolset will be determined by Mindset and Skillset. Carry the most powerful, highest capacity weapon you can that satisfies Mindset and Skillset.

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Mindset deals most generally with how one views his CCW responsibilities, I realize. But it also relates directly to skill set and tool set; none of the three can be isolated from the other two. So, what about the CCWer whose self assessment of his mindset and skill set are way off base?

Too many people select a carry caliber based on its proclaimed stopping power and then don't bother becoming any good with the gun that fires it. We've all seen a shooter who finds he can slow-fire a whole mag of 230-gr JHP uber-bullets more or less into a silhouette at 7yrds from his M&P 45, and he thinks that's all it takes. He believes he has the right mindset and has developed the right skill set with his chosen tool set. He has no idea (mindset issue) that he's not very good (skill set issue) with a gun that has more power for its weight than he can handle (tool set issue). His ability to execute accurate shots under stress is gonna be even worse than at the range, but he'll never believe it and will pack that .45 around thinking he's all set because he read on the Internet that it's the only choice for a real man (or some similar load of crap).

The shooter I described could probably become a good shooter with his featherweight .45, but he isn't there yet and won't ever be given his current thinking. Give him a proper tool for his current ability, say, a steel 9mm, and he'll probably shoot better groups at the range, which translates, generally, to a better chance of getting hits under duress. I dare say the over-gunned CCWer is more common than we'd like to believe.

beatledog7 said:

I dare say the over-gunned CCWer is more common than we'd like to believe.

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I dare say, sadly, most CCW'ers are under-gunned and under-skilled.

Dave
I forgot you can't keep from personal attacks.

IBTL

And entirely too many licensed CCW/CHL/CPL-call-it-what-you-will holders do not even carry daily.

Talk about being undergunned...

And entirely too many licensed CCW/CHL/CPL-call-it-what-you-will holders do not even carry daily.

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Yep. Ever since I thought about it and realized that if someone broke in while I was on the other side of the house even, and my gun was locked in the safe, then I might as well not have dropped all the money on the gun, accessories, ammo, and potentially training, because it's doing me no good at that point.

If your gun isn't ON YOU when attacked, then it's about as useful as using a thermometer to tell time.

3twelves said:

Are you going to notice a little more recoil in a SD scenario? NO

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Felt recoil is one thing; muzzle flip is another. Of all the handguns I own, my PF9 is the hardest to keep on target. I don't care if you've got a grip like King Kong on an adrenaline rush -- when you pull the trigger on that featherweight 9, it's going to jump. The long DA trigger pull doesn't help, but the real issue is the power-to-weight ratio. I feel much better with my Glock 26 or, better yet, SIG P239. I'm not sold on the mini-9 concept.

Ive got a Kel Tec P32, with a 10 round magazine. I also have an LCP which I dont trust. Its just not as reliable as I want it to be. Every time I take it to the range, it will malfunction at least once. So... I dont carry it. I carry the Kel-Tec, because it hasnt malfunctioned in over 400 rounds. So, for me, its a 32ACP with 11 rounds. I feel that will get me outta trouble, cause with this little gun, there will be NO ONE SHOT STOPS.

TimboKhan got it right in post #101 - "This is getting snarky for no good reason."

.380 threads get snarky quicker than "Bear Gun" threads