Idea regarding "Gun-Control".

Holy cow that an extremely well-written post, gossamer.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk. Hence all the misspellings and goofy word choices.

Gun control alone will not solve this problem. There is ample data to suggest that it will not even minimize it's effect. Video Game control alone will not solve this problem. Mental Healthcare alone will not solve this problem. Media correction will not solve this problem. Putting a weapon in the hands of every principal in every school in America will not solve this problem.

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I have been pondering this since it has happened, and let’s not forget that there was another incident less than a week removed from this horrendous event. These things are happening more frequently, but why? You say very eloquently that it there are multiple causes. I think video games can be pinned down as one culprit now, but not in the way others blame them.

Why so many psychotic young men? Well let’s look at our society. We have immense technology and ways to communicate, and this has created a world with minimal human contact. It is now possible to do almost anything WITHOUT talking to anyone or even leaving your home. Wild animals live without man, and therefore when they see a man they act out in fright, sometimes running, other times attack. I think the cause is our technology. These boys live in a world, shut off from the rest of us, and without human contact they grow to fear the outside. Add the impetus of violent film/TV/Games, a national media fixated on violent acts, and seeing how glorified the others before them are, is t no wonder that they go nuts?
Then we can talk about food, it is proven that the additives in the food we eat affect our brains and how we process information.
So look we have a young man, who spends his days and nights in a locked room, avoiding human contact, eating frozen food (with numerous chemicals) and pretending to kill people. Now take the same boy, eliminate computers video games and fast food. Make him work in a field all day with his family and hunt fresh meat for dinner, and he would be a happy well-adjusted human being.
Some of the more religious folks have mentioned that without god in our schools this is what will happen, well they are right. I am not religious, but if these boys went to church every Sunday, and comingled with the others in the congregation it would undoubtedly do them some good.
If you live in isolation, with no company to keep but your own mind, you will go insane.

As I said, changing one thing isn't going to solve this problem. Nothing is going to eliminate this problem. But I think there are opportunities to inform and learn from these situations and be seen as part of the solution while still respecting our rights.

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Very eloquent, and agreed.

Justin said:

Holy cow that an extremely well-written post, gossamer.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk. Hence all the misspellings and goofy word choices.

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Thank you for reading it and responding.

blaisenguns said:

I have been pondering this since it has happened, and let’s not forget that there was another incident less than a week removed from this horrendous event. These things are happening more frequently, but why? You say very eloquently that it there are multiple causes. <snip>
Some of the more religious folks have mentioned that without god in our schools this is what will happen, well they are right. I am not religious, but if these boys went to church every Sunday, and comingled with the others in the congregation it would undoubtedly do them some good.
If you live in isolation, with no company to keep but your own mind, you will go insane.


Very eloquent, and agreed.

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There is evidence that increased social interaction, whether it be along religious lines, sports, etc. helps reduce potential violence.

I run a program for veterans returning from theater. Specifics are unimportant to this discussion but I am not a psychiatrist or a psychologist or any kind of mental health professional or therapist. One of the core components we are given by mental health professionals in that program is that the vets need to be in social settings as a part of our group process. Being in social settings is important. They live in isolation with a disease that is further isolating them and this is a piece of reducing the incidence of PTSD episodes. It's not a keystone, but it is a brick.

These things all deal with causes, though. And I don't think we have a lot of power to change the causes. Where we, as responsible gun owners, can have an impact is on the process. And the part of the process that is most pertinent to our interests and position is that crossing of mental health and firearms.

If our group, pro-RKBA folks, is seen as working to educate and be educated on the process of escalation, specifically how it relates to firearms and securing our rights in total while respecting that the object of our interest - in the wrong hands - can be devastating we can be a huge benefit not only to the conversation but to actually reducing the incidents of gun violence in the future.

As a responsible gun owner, my interests do not end with securing my rights to own guns as I see fit. I have a serious interest in being part of reducing the amount of gun violence in this country. There are many ways to accomplish this and they are more numerous than always carrying. As a responsible gun owner I can affect this tragic conundrum without having to be in every potentially violent situation to help thwart the perpetrator.

If I can be a part of educating and being educated by others, like Lanza's mother, family and community, in the process of escalation I want to do that. If I can learn more about what the process of escalation among the mentally ill who could be on a path to taking their own life looks like, I want to. If part of my firearms training can entail how domestic strife can lead to violence like was perpetrated in my community by an NFL player a few weeks ago, I want that training. I think these are as important as marksmanship to the process of responsibly owning and using guns.

Mike Huckabee comments in re CT school shooting

http://video.foxnews.com/v/2038135300001/huckabee-where-was-god/


Huckabee reminds the antigunners and liberals in general that ultra-liberal courts and lawmakers have banned even the mention of the Christian God,
the Ten Commandments, and the Christian bible from schools, courtrooms, city parks, and virtually all aspects of public life (although Allah and the Koran are usually quite welcome in those same places). Many of the people who are now asking "where was God" are the same people who were eager to have courts and politicians tell God to take a hike, we don't need a sky fairy (atheist name for God) telling us what we can and can't do. However, it seems to me that we need God and teaching of the bible's moral laws in public schools now more than ever.

I graduated high school in 1955 and my senior class home room teacher, a very nice Mennonite lady, often recited a short prayer at the start of the school day. Her prayers didn't transform us into teenage saints with halos over our heads, but it did remind us that there is a God and even our well educated teachers believed that He exists and that He makes the rules we should live by. Some of us guys had our shotguns in our cars or pickumup trucks out in the school parking lot so we could go directly to the dove fields after school let out. Somehow none of us ever got the notion into our heads that it would be great fun to shoot a few of the kids in the grade school just a 1/4 mile down the road. Could it just be possible that our belief in an actual righteous God and our upbringing in families committed to biblical moral values and the worth of human life had something to do with our utter lack of interest in doing something like that?

Could it just be possible that our belief in an actual righteous God and our upbringing in families committed to biblical moral values and the worth of human life had something to do with our utter lack of interest in doing something like that?

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Speaking as one of them, what do you suggest is stopping the tens of millions of atheists living in the US from doing something like this?

Wow, there are a lot of people on this forum with Aspergers! I think mental illness, as it pertains to this argument, falls into one of two categories. Some people just don't see the world the same, and they all have a choice in what they do. The other type is people who can have a complete break from reality, and no matter how "nice" they are, that could pose a problem.

The fact remains that mentally ill are MUCH MORE likely to be a victim of a crime than a perpetrator. After all, who is going to believe that mentally ill girl was assaulted when she's calling the judge a hampster and says her lawyer is from Jupiter? I'm not saying we should arm everyone who's been diagnosed, but as it pertains to mental illness, it should be up to the competency of the individual to deal with reality.

I've said it in other threads - we need to get rid of victimless crimes, push those in jail for hurting themselves back onto the streets, and keep violent offenders locked up. It won't prevent violent crime, but it will prevent repeat offenses and provide a stronger deterrence.

As to the OP and those calling for us to "compromise"...when I first started on this forum, I had a similar licensing idea. It was shot down by a lot of people, and I came to realize that licensing, regulating, banning, and anything else we do legally on the tool won't prevent the crime. Most mass shootings are commited by either A) someone already prohibited or B) someone who would pass most of the suggested laws (aside from a total ban).

Limiting what someone can do because of what most can do (i.e. "you can only buy one gun at a time because most people in this economy can only buy one at a time") is hogwash. That would be like saying "no, Mr. Gates, you can't buy a Ferrari because all I can afford is a Kia." And those wanting people to be at least 25, can you wait five months to pass those laws? I'm 24...

Could it just be possible that our belief in an actual righteous God and our upbringing in families committed to biblical moral values and the worth of human life had something to do with our utter lack of interest in doing something like that?

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Unlikely. First of all school violence continues to DECLINE even with a few high-profile cases like this, even in this "godless" age. (Every generation more or less says the next is godless or some equivalent.)

Second, the worst mass murder of school children in the US happened in 1927. There almost certainly were a LOT more devotedly religious, Christian, even legitimately devout, pious people in American society at that time -- certainly they were a far larger proportion of society.

So, the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia don't provide the clue to unlocking the "reasons."

Maybe there really are no comprehensible reasons. Maybe there are no patterns discernible by human beings to predict, track, or screen out these exceedingly rare violent anomalies.

Maybe we should simply prepare ourselves and our loved ones as best as we can to resist violence to the best of our own ability.

I know it's not really relevant to the discussion, but since it was brought up: morality isn't just limited to the religious. Immorality isn't just limited to the non-religious. I'll leave it at that.

Not a regular poster here. I've been a member but only check in from time to time read rather than chat. That said I'm not a troll but come here now to try and enter the "high road" discussion regarding the issues and events at hand after reading and seeing so much ignorance and fear being directed towards guns and gun owners.

Gossamar, thank you for your thoughts. I've read the entire thread and you've saved me much effort to bring up similar points in likely a less elegant way.

We here may be much better versed in the history and intent of our RTKBA. We may be better informed on guns, their use, and the big picture of their place regarding public welfare. We may be correct in our assertions of principal and efficacy of reactionary impulses to legislate away our rights. All the same to simply stand on the moral high ground, cross our arms, and say NO without offering other possible solutions to mitigate some contributing factors to these high profile shootings is not going to win us the support we need to keep the solutions that are unreasonable and lacking in common sense from being enacted as if they were. To simply say look elsewhere, the problem is not guns ain't going to do. This time is different and far too close to the last time. This won't end in a couple bills being routed in congress and then the banatics being heeled to the leash. People of all ages have the same right to what life they have left in them but all these youngsters being slaughtered will not go without some measure even if symbolic and ineffective like an AWB being enacted. We need to be part of the solution or we will continually be perceived as part of the problem.

So, let's put forth some ideas here. They don't have to be perfect. Lets means test them among ourselves without getting all tribal and harrumphing behind our "what part of infringed don't you understand".

So, let's put forth some ideas here. They don't have to be perfect. Lets means test them among ourselves without getting all tribal and harrumphing behind our "what part of infringed don't you understand".

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so your idea is to propose some form of symbolic gun regulation, knowing full well it will do nothing to address the actual issue.....?

you see, i would much rather try to figure out the actual issue an do what i can to fix it properly.....i dont care if it doesnt make you feel warm and fuzzy.

Justin said:

Clearly the quislings are out in force today.

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Clearly someone who has no concept of historical terms is out in force tonight. Lets us know when someone here engendered a coup with the Nazis to invade the board and be a collaborator, otherwise find a better term.

M-Cameron said:

so your idea is to propose some form of symbolic gun regulation, knowing full well it will do nothing to address the actual issue.....?

you see, i would much rather try to figure out the actual issue an do what i can to fix it properly.....i dont care if it doesnt make you feel warm and fuzzy.

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Precisely! There are things that we can do to lessen these shootings and lessen the carnage, but it has absolutely nothing to do with guns. However they do not want to hear that.

Some of us think that restricting the freedoms of the majority to create a meaningless untrue feeling of safety are a bad idea. Giving in to gun haters doesn't make anyone safer. In fact the opposite is true. One should not be surprised to see opposition to these so called common sense ideas. Gun control only works for the people that will never give up their guns' i.e. the ruling class. Did anyone notice that the president is still surrounded by armed security while he would strip that right from the rest of us.
Rmfcasey

So, let's put forth some ideas here. They don't have to be perfect. Lets means test them among ourselves without getting all tribal and harrumphing behind our "what part of infringed don't you understand".

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I posted a bunch of good ones back in post 63:

What shall we propose to ACTUALLY ADDRESS this problem?

1) Promote carrying of weapons. Defense is the responsibility of the individual.
2) Eliminate "Gun-Free Zones"! Especially schools. They are a travesty and a lie. Remove them utterly.
3) Better and effective training of teachers to react to crises like this. We should make it abundantly clear that part of a teacher's sworn (Sworn? Sure, why not?) duty is to ensure the safety of their charges. As a teacher you will instruct -- AND YOU WILL PROTECT.
4) Allow teachers and school staff to be armed.
5) Armed guards at schools
6) Better/tighter security at schools

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Profound, workable, and the only things which have a PRAYER of resisting this kind of evil.

Clearly someone who has no concept of historical terms is out in force tonight. Lets us know when someone here engendered a coup with the Nazis to invade the board and be a collaborator, otherwise find a better term

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Please

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quisling

quis·ling noun, often attributive \ˈkwiz-liŋ\

Definition of QUISLING: traitor 2, collaborator

The etymology, though significant, does not preclude it's use as a desriptive term for any person who partakes in traitorous behavior.

grahluk said:

Not a regular poster here. I've been a member but only check in from time to time read rather than chat. That said I'm not a troll but come here now to try and enter the "high road" discussion regarding the issues and events at hand after reading and seeing so much ignorance and fear being directed towards guns and gun owners.

Gossamar, thank you for your thoughts. I've read the entire thread and you've saved me much effort to bring up similar points in likely a less elegant way.

We here may be much better versed in the history and intent of our RTKBA. We may be better informed on guns, their use, and the big picture of their place regarding public welfare. We may be correct in our assertions of principal and efficacy of reactionary impulses to legislate away our rights. All the same to simply stand on the moral high ground, cross our arms, and say NO without offering other possible solutions to mitigate some contributing factors to these high profile shootings is not going to win us the support we need to keep the solutions that are unreasonable and lacking in common sense from being enacted as if they were. To simply say look elsewhere, the problem is not guns ain't going to do. This time is different and far too close to the last time. This won't end in a couple bills being routed in congress and then the banatics being heeled to the leash. People of all ages have the same right to what life they have left in them but all these youngsters being slaughtered will not go without some measure even if symbolic and ineffective like an AWB being enacted. We need to be part of the solution or we will continually be perceived as part of the problem.

So, let's put forth some ideas here. They don't have to be perfect. Lets means test them among ourselves without getting all tribal and harrumphing behind our "what part of infringed don't you understand".

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This is exactly why compromise is vital.

MachIVshooter said:

Please

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quisling

quis·ling noun, often attributive \ˈkwiz-liŋ\

Definition of QUISLING

: traitor 2, collaborator

The etymology, though significant, does not preclude it's use as a desriptive term for any person who partakes in traitorous behavior.

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If I'm a "traitor" for proposing solutions, what are you and your peers for refusing cooperation and compromise?

Rocketmedic said:

This is exactly why compromise is vital.

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Who are you going to compromise with?

If I'm a "traitor" for proposing solutions, what are you and your peers for refusing cooperation and compromise?

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Solution? Yeah, ok The rest of us aren't ready and willing to give up our god-given and constitutionally protected right for the sake of appeasement. Why should we engage in expiation when we've done nothing wrong?

What you offer is sacrifice, not solution.

We should train and arm staff at schools theaters and other places were unarmed targets are confined. Yes gun laws make law abiding innocent people
Targets for monsters that want to die famous for mass murder.

ATBackPackin said:

Precisely! There are things that we can do to lessen these shootings and lessen the carnage, but it has absolutely nothing to do with guns. However they do not want to hear that.

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I do not think we can say with any degree of certainty that they have "absolutely nothing to do with guns."

These situations do in fact occur when the mentally ill and guns mix. Therefore, prevention does have to do with guns. We have to be willing to admit that fact. To say that lessening occurance of something that involves guns "has nothing to do with guns" is simply saying "I won't believe my lyin' eyes."

The terrible events that can occur from nexus of guns and mental illness is part of a process of escalation. We know that is true from very good studies conducted over decades of research. While very few of us are qualified to be involved before that point where they cross, we can be trained in what that escalation looks like in its various forms, and how to respond accordingly so that our rights are protected in total.

When I say "we" here I mean all of us responsible gun owners. All of us who not only want to protect the RKBA, but want to do whatever we can to prevent these tragedies before they even get to the point of the perpetrator picking up a gun. Because, like it or not, these tragedies do threaten our rights in total.

I look at our possible role in helping prevent these tragedies as a continuation of or addition to our firearms training. But we need to ask other groups to come to the table to help us with that. The groups who rely on us for their support, like the NRA, gun/ammo mfgs, etc. need to contribute their end to this process along with the mental health community, LE community, etc.. They can be a valuable part of learning and equipping us owners and dealers with the tools to help recognize when someone may be along the continuum of escalation into domestic violence, domestic terrorism, school shooting, or suicide. All of these can and do involve guns. So guns and gun owners can be part of the process of reducing the incidence of these tragedies.

So guns and gun owners can be part of the process of reducing the incidence of these tragedies.

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That may be so, but the only conclusion one can draw here seems to be that ALL of the progress to be made has to come in the mental health realm -- no?

We already bar those involuntarily committed for psychiatric treatment from possessing firearms. (To the extent that ANY law can prevent someone from possessing something they're determined to have, which isn't much.)

And we can't simply broaden the definitions of who is prohibited randomly, hoping to sweep up the one-in-26 million really bad guys by hammering the other 25,999,999 good, if needy, folks to the wall. That would be a huge infringement on the rights of a WHOLE lot of perfectly innocent people.

So what kind of proposal are you suggesting? How do we demand ... well, how do we demand WHAT? If the medical science doesn't exist to identify these extreme anomalies, what are we asking for?

Obviously, we aren't circling back to ... "well we can't really fix this, so let's throw them a bone (like "Assault Weapons") and hope they go away." So what ARE we proposing?

Many of you made excellent points.

Gossamer, among some others, made some superb suggestions which deal with "the Big Picture".
Whether you participate in "Rivers Of Recovery" for some of our veterans, or elsewhere, thanks very much.