I watched Bowling for Columbine, don't get mad at me.

That's ok, I've watched "Triumph of the Will", and a few Japanese propaganda films. That doesn't mean that I think the wrong side won the war.

There's a VERY interesting book called "Michael Moore is a Big, Fat, Stupid, White Man". It goes into some detail on the INTENTIONAL lies and deceptions in "Columbine". You might want to find a copy and re-watch "Columbine" in light of what's in it.

It's understandable but unfortunate you feel compelled to apologize ahead of time for watching Bowling for Columbine or anything like it -- though many of the responses you're getting indicate your prescience in doing so.

But open-mindedly investigating and understanding in a substantial, nuanced way the beliefs, perceptions, overall goals, talking points and especially tactics of any opponent -- political or otherwise -- not only makes you a more rounded, informed and considered individual, but also significantly better prepared to advance your own position and counter theirs than the knee jerk, uninquisitive types are.

Good for you.

If I had a dollar for every time I blamed the wrong party for what's wrong with America.....I'd be a fat filmmaker with a ball cap.

Nothing wrong with knowing your enemy and/or challenging your beliefs. As mentioned, pretty much all of his films have been debunked. Most importantly, sorry for your loss.

I think it's very important to know what the other side is saying, and just as important to try to understand why they believe it. It might challenge your own beliefs and cause you to dig into the foundations of what you really believe yourself.

That said, Moore is a propagandist along the lines of Goebbels. The truth is completely irrelevant to people like that, so long as they can get weak minded people to go along with them. "The ends justify the means"

The only people that are freaking out and giving the OP crap about watching something politically/socially aligned in another direction must be folks who feel insecure and intimidated. I've watched plenty of programming that I don't agree with, by choice.

Cesiumsponge said:

The only people that are freaking out and giving the OP crap about watching something politically/socially aligned in another direction must be folks who feel insecure and intimidated. I've watched plenty of programming that I don't agree with, by choice.

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I'm not sure what you are referring to as I do not recall anybody freaking out.

Perhaps freaking out was too strong a term. There are plenty of M&M threads where people seem to get irrationally worked up when someone brings it up. His work is tripe and garbage entertainment, despite trying to pass it off as a documentary.

I'm not mad at anyone who watched it but I'm not going to and will change channels if I even see MM's face.

I drove a ways to see BFC when it was in theaters, because none around here showed it. Moore is a liar at best, and what he did to Charlton Heston is all the proof anyone needs as to how low Moore will go.

Oddly enough, Marylin Manson made the best point in the whole thing about the media promoting fear.

I'm watching this show right now for the first time.

I've already thrown up a little in my mouth, a couple times.

I'm going to do something more constructive with my time for the second half of the movie. Like... go load some ammo in the basement.

Always a good idea to study your enemies, see how they think, express themselves. Rush Limbaugh's harshest critics are people who have never listened to him.

wacki said:

Moore says Guns = racism and you don't think it's anti-gun?

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wacki, as some one from Chicago, I find that fairly amusing. Gun control here grew out of Daley the First's racist policies, which grew into what we have today, which is very notably meant to discriminate against the poor, which includes more than a few largely black neighbor hoods.

Exactly. No matter what, gun control policy has ALWAYS had, at its heart, the desire to drive a further wedge between the classes, in addition to the economic one: giving the power brokers a monopoly of force.
The poor always suffer the most, and when the idea of gun control reared its ugly head, recently freed slaves were the excuse.

Michael Moore is a funny guy. He points to a culture of fear and a culture of racism, wraps them up in a really cool theory... and comes to a totally backwards conclusion.

The only ones living in media-generated fear are the anti-gun crowd, who have their roots in racist laws (he even admits to this part).

Seriously, what culture of fear? Did the NRA and that darn gun lobby use advertisements to convince me I needed a gun? Can any one of us here say this is the case? Has anybody who wasn't looking for a gun even SEEN an advertisement for one? The only ones being brainwashed are the idiots who think their neighbors are itching to shoot them up and will get the chance if we don't ban those awful, awful guns; just like the politician with more armed security than any of us will ever be able to afford says. Riiiight. Culture of fear drives the gun owners. Whatever you say, Mike.

He's the left-wing Ann Coulter. When you hear anybody cite him, make a mental note to yourself that this person is incapable of thinking for himself/herself.

David Hardy has a phenomenal take down of Bowling for Columbine and all of the outright lies, misdirection, and sleight-of-hand Moore pulls to make his point.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Furthermore, much of what Moore claims about the Columbine shooting is patently untrue. If you're actually interested in getting a reasonable understanding of that event, you're much better off reading Dave Cullen's book Columbine. While Cullen is probably not, in fact, pro-gun, he doesn't generally betray any bias in his book, and he does a damned sight better at research and source-citing than Michael Moore ever would.

Michael Moore is utterly shameless in the lengths he's willing to go in order to exploit his audience in order to make a buck.

seems to me there was a movie a while back based on it. i think it was call elephant? good movie, dark but good non the less

Elephant was Gus Van Sant's shameless attempt to cash in on school shootings by creating a fictionalized movie based on it.

I never saw it, so can't really comment as to whether it's any good or not. As I recall, however, Van Sant attempts to do some finger-pointing at US gun culture and gets it completely wrong. For instance, showing the killers buying guns mail-order and having them delivered straight to their home.

Justin said:

Elephant was Gus Van Sant's shameless attempt to cash in on school shootings by creating a fictionalized movie based on it.

I never saw it, so can't really comment as to whether it's any good or not. As I recall, however, Van Sant attempts to do some finger-pointing at US gun culture and gets it completely wrong. For instance, showing the killers buying guns mail-order and having them delivered straight to their home.

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I take it they weren't C&R eligible guns, or guns from the CMP? I am not familiar with what you are referring to, I guess it was about Columbine specifically?

I guess I'll just have to stop being lazy and Google it

It's a skillful bit of agitprop. Moore is master at using emotionally intense sequences to keep his audience from thinking very much. He also avoids taking any firm positions. So he can say he didn't call for any bans during the film and he's right. In fact he comes to NO conclusions. And his outright fabrications like the history of the NRA and KKK being linked are presented to ensure he can deny having claimed anything of the kind. But the message is abundantly clear--America is inherently sick and gun owners are at the core of the sickness. It's a message that resonates well with the selected audience.

He's about the worst ally the antis could have. Polarizing, ruthless and interested ultimately only in his own fame and wealth.

Cosmoline, hmm... agitprop... Thanks. Interesting and useful word.

To further expand on the first paragraph, I will throw the word "othering" out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othering

His work is tripe and garbage entertainment, despite trying to pass it off as a documentary.

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Let me go one step farther and state that "Bowling for Columbine" is no more of a documentary than "Jew Suss".

AT BEST, Michael Moore is Josef Goebbels with an eating disorder.

I will light a candle for your Brother. Nuff said about the other.

wacki, as some one from Chicago, I find that fairly amusing. Gun control here grew out of Daley the First's racist policies, which grew into what we have today, which is very notably meant to discriminate against the poor, which includes more than a few largely black neighbor hoods.

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As another former resident of Apartheid Chicago, let me throw out a few other things to consider:

1. Richard J. Daley, the father of gun control in Chicago, was a member of one of the organizations which instigated the 1919 race riot. Oddly enough, Chicago was one of the few cities in the late 19th and early 20th centuries where there was rough racial parity in casualties arising out of a race riot. Why? Blacks were armed and shot back. Not only that, but Black doughboys raided the National Guard armories for weapons with which to defend themselves and their families. My grandmother was there at the time and told me about it decades later. A motivating factor for the Daleys? You tell me.
2. In ANY discussion of gun control on an online comments section of a Chicago newspaper, a substantial portion of the anti-gun comments will be framed in naked racial terms, and express a need to "control" Black people.

In Chicago EVERYTHING is about race, and gun control as much or more than anything else.

Ahh, I felt so much better. My wife made me turn off the TV and sent me downstairs to go load ammo.

"Why are you watching this?"

"Because this guy is a ----- ----- -------"

"If it upsets you why are you watching it?"

"Because this guy is a ----- - ---- ------ ------"

CLICK.

"Go downstairs and make some bullets."

"Yes honey."