Right to feel safe, or right to be safe?

It's the criminal CCWers they should fear.

Ya sometimes this is hard to approach. Just have to judge if they can have a reasonable discussion. I have. Good friend that does not want to see anyone open carry cus he feels scared of them. ( Michigan has recent bill that brought open carry to the public eye). But at the same time I ask him that he does not know who is concealed carry and his responce is if I don't see it then I feel safe. Then he has nothing to say when I say a gun in the room is a gun in the room isn't it!??

In many of these discussions, people argue from the point of "I feel X". It usually means a personal bias has replaced rational data that might be contrary to their worldview. "I don't feel as if Y" or "I feel Z is the correct way to go".

It's probable that none of those statements have a credible foundation behind them, other than pure personal opinion. After all, personal worldviews take a lot of energy to create. It's a pain in the butt to change your worldview even if it's factually incorrect because you've invested so much into creating them. This goes for any argument or position that ceases to be objective.

guitarguy314 said:

I hear a lot of anti gun people say that they don't feel safe with civilians concealing weapons in public. They use this as an argument against concealed (or otherwise) carry. My question is, do they have a right to FEEL safe, or BE safe?

If someone is afraid of clowns, can they sue a nearby circus?

I interpret things as it doesn't matter what others are doing, until it hurts you or your property, you just have to grin and bear it.

Or am I off base?

Click to expand...

Not IMO--You're square on.

However your question/statement to me is indicative of a general theme I am seeing of late in that "we" seem to be on the defensive (in some cases paranoid) as the mainstream media is desperately trying to make us look like the bad guys. I actually had a family member ask me the other day if I was going to wear my NRA hoodie as I was on my way out to run a few errands .

We just need to step back and catch our breath and then get back down to the business of doing our utmost best to support "Our" Second Amendment" of which the Founding Fathers so brilliantly crafted so that we could remain free of tyranny.

--Happy New Year

I don't think Americans have the right to either be safe or feel safe. It is up to the individual through defensive measures, choice on place to live, and so forth. I of course realize that sometimes choosing the "safe" place to live is difficult and un-available to many realistically.

I'm sure if you asked most victims of crime (robbery, assault, rape... can't ask dead people unfortunately) they'd say they felt safe right up until the point they were attacked. the reality was they were not safe for far longer than that. so which is more important... FEELING safe? or BEING safe? to me to be the latter you actually CAN'T *feel* safe most of the time. driving a car, walking the isles of a grocery store, with your kids at the park... BEING safe requires you to see the dangers around you. and if you're seeing them and actively mitigating them then you can't FEEL safe.

I dont agree with the "i dont feel safe because X is has a gun" therefore we must do something about it.

Call me silly, but that's the equivalent of guilty until proven innocent. Which there is way too much of in this country already.

Ever see people at the airport interviewed by the news? The reporter asks if they think the TSA is doing anything for them. Everyone invariably says they, "feel safer". I've never seen anyone ever say, "I know I'm safer"

Unfortunately, gun owners are becoming GUILTY before any crime is committed and there is no such thing as innocent.

Morality and personal responsibilty.... it is all about those concepts. When you loose the morality by the majority and you assign personal responsibility to law enforcement, government health care, politicans, the military.... you do not have an America I want to live in.

guitarguy314 said:

I hear a lot of anti gun people say that they don't feel safe with civilians concealing weapons in public. They use this as an argument against concealed (or otherwise) carry.

Click to expand...

They seem to have great difficulty viewing reality in a pragmatic way. For one thing, they have this notion that the law can stop criminals from doing things that scare or could harm them. To be sure, it is a deterrent, but there will always be criminals nevertheless who disregard these "feel-good" laws because, well, they're criminals.

I'm not a psychologist, but if you'll permit me to dabble, based on my own observations a lot of the difference between people on either side of the CCW issue seems to be their source of fear and how they manage fear. Those who favor CCW fear the actions of criminals who may be carrying and the potential of any random person they don't know to do evil; naturally, they desire to possess the means by which to defend themselves potentially from anybody, which ameliorates their fear (because it helps provide real protection). Those who disfavor CCW (and probably guns in general), on the other hand, do not want to fear anybody, even though they do, so they sort of transfer this fear into tools, namely guns, and then try to eliminate those. The problem, of course, is that the really dangerous people are still going to be carrying weapons, but the antis don't want to think about it because they can't deal with being afraid--they fear fear so much that they'll overlook some very basic, practical facts staring them right in the face.

Enough pop psychology--the facts are actually rather simple, and their combination with the natural right of self-defense for all creatures heavily favors the right of legal CCW in a free country. If criminals are going to be carrying guns regardless of the law, and they very frequently do, then we all should have the right to be equally armed. Good luck trying to convince somebody who has transferred their fear of people to guns, though--the vast majority don't want to hear it, and will not be convinced. The ones who can be are the ones who simply went with what they'd been taught, but can still think for themselves. The best way to convince the others, unfortunately, is for a criminal to threaten them or take the life of somebody they love--when they finally lose faith in the law's ability to protect them, then they might change their minds.

guitarguy314 said:

My question is, do they have a right to FEEL safe, or BE safe?

Click to expand...

To typical antis, these are one in the same. Their greatest fear is fear itself. Ignoring fear can be good when something needs to get done regardless of the risks, but ignoring facts so that you can transfer your fears away and equate real safety with merely feeling safe is downright cowardly and potentially dangerous (to yourself!).

guitarguy314 said:

If someone is afraid of clowns, can they sue a nearby circus?

Click to expand...

Yes, if enough lawmakers and judges were equally afraid of clowns. That's not currently the case with clowns, but it's a situation that we potentially face as proponents of gun rights.

22-rimfire said:

I don't think Americans have the right to either be safe or feel safe. It is up to the individual through defensive measures, choice on place to live, and so forth. I of course realize that sometimes choosing the "safe" place to live is difficult and un-available to many realistically.

Click to expand...

Agreed, the only right to be safe is the right to be safe from an over-reaching government codified in the restrictions laid in the BoR.

When I am armed, which is about 98 percent of the time, I feel safe. I don't give a rat's patootie what other people think. That brings up another peeve of mine. My dad life was spent trying to impress other people. Myself, I don't give a rat's, well you know, what other people think. They just have to take me as I am, which is armed. That is why my friends are who they are, all armed. We will go out of our way to protect those around us if the time came though....chris3

Fella's;

OK, let's face facts. There is no such thing as "safe". There is an explicit future of death for all of us. Having your life cut short is an inherent risk of being alive. Regardless if the threat to life is a giant asteroid inexorably headed towards earth, an airliner hitting the building your in, or getting bit by a mosquito carrying a noxious virus, you run the risk merely by being alive. In other words, if you are capable of exhibiting a working intellect, you know you can't be totally safe. To then express that you have the right to "feel safe" says things about your cognitive abilities that aren't favorable.

There are, of course, justifiable reductions of risk. Workplace safety laws, air traffic regulations, etc., etc.. But, to punish a very large number of Americans with new gun control legislation in order to make Joe & Jane vegetable "feel safe" is time, effort, and particularly in these times, money very very poorly spent.

At every opportunity we should make the facts of Canada's failed national registration known. The actual costs of that legislative idiocy exceeded projections by an incredibly large margin. Furthermore, I've been told that the actual compliance percentage might have been 50%. That in Canada, a culture who's laws and culture are based on the English model of subjects, not citizens.

900F

I've asked people who were apprehensive about lawfully-armed citizens this: "If I take my firearm off and hand it to you, will you suddenly become a dangerous person driven to acts of violence?" I have not yet had anyone answer in the affirmative, so I then make sure they understand that they are coming off as someone who trusts themselves, but no one else, and that that can be offensive.

As absurd as it sounds, some gun control and confiscation cretins truly believe in a “social liberty” where no one has to worry.

Another ugly form of collectivism that gives priority to "group" rights over individual rights and individuals sacrificing themselves for the "group" or "greater good".

The forced equality of the convict camp.

Of course, every form collectivism is linked to statism and the diminution of freedom when political authority is used to advance collectivist goals.

Reminds me of a dingus and his wife walking past my property years back as I was doing outdoor stuff and my rottweiller was following me about as rottweillers do. She never moved towards them, never stepped anywhere near off the property and still dingus makes a point of telling me she is supposed to be on a leash.

I'm thinkin' - whatever, move on - but let him know that that is not in fact the case as she was on my property and he should have a nice day.

He then proceeds to debate about cops, regs fences and the like but ends with the fact that my dog was scaring his wife. Note that by now they would have been a quarter mile away - a fact neither lost on nor ignored by me.

So, in flash of instinct which usually comes later with a "why didn't I think of that then?" I say to the fella:

I wonder how you come to believe that I'm responsible for what you fear?

CB900F has it right: "safe" is relative at best. Complete safety is unachievable.

It is also a fact that there is no inherent right to feel safe, nor is there an inherent right to feel anything. But let's say there were, and that I don't feel safe in "gun-free" zones. Since I have a right to enter them and in many cases am even required to enter them, they should be eliminated because they violate my inherent right to feel safe.

You can easily demonstrate how utterly silly this notion of a right to feel safe is. Somebody above mentioned fear of clowns. There are lots of people who are afraid of the dark, of dogs, of closed places, of open places, of water, of bridges, etc. And we have to admit, people have died in situations involving all of these things (except maybe clowns). So they can feel safe, we must create an environment in which people can live their lives without ever encountering a clown, the dark, a dog, an open space, a bridge...

See how silly that is?

Cesiumsponge said:

Ever see people at the airport interviewed by the news? The reporter asks if they think the TSA is doing anything for them. Everyone invariably says they, "feel safer". I've never seen anyone ever say, "I know I'm safer"

Click to expand...

Reminds me of an old "All in the Family" episode where Archie does a PSA concerning hijacking (early 70's it was real common). He suggests that the airlines provide a revolver to each passenger as they board the plane--his theory is that the potential 'hijacker' would think twice about taking over the plane if they feared getting shot...? Of course, the show was produced by an extremely liberal Gary Marshall so it always made "conservative" Archie out to look like a loon and liberal "Meat-head & Gloria" look like brain-surgeons.

Pardon if I veered off on a tangent (I'm in my 40's so maybe some of you here are not even familiar with the show).

--Happy New Year

It isn't unreasonable for people to feel unsafe with others around them carrying a gun. Hell, I'm not particularly fond of being around anyone with a gun who's training background I don't know... But the important thing for people to realize is that ccw-related accidents are so absolutely miniscule that it's like mentioning how many times someone gets in their car at the post office, and accidentally drives into the post office. I could throw out some analogies, make some points about pros of ccw for the bystander, etc... but I'd be preaching to the choir...

If you ask most of these people if they would feel safe around a uniformed police officer, what do you think their answer would be? Yet, you and I both know that there have been times when police officer's have had negligent discharges of their weapons. Yet, most people still feel safe.

Frankly, there are people who open carry that I don't feel safe around and others that I don't give a second thought. Working in a store that sells firearms and ammo, I see quite a few people carrying guns. Some people I don't give a second thought and others worry me to death until they get out of the store.

As far as concealed carry, if you're doing it right....nobody but you should know.

My common response to the "I don't feel safe with people who are carrying guns" is a little different from what I'm seeing here.

My response is, "I don't feel as safe when I'm with people who don't carry guns. I prefer to have back up from people who have taken the effort to defend themselves."

Pops

Cesiumsponge said:

Ever see people at the airport interviewed by the news? The reporter asks if they think the TSA is doing anything for them. Everyone invariably says they, "feel safer". I've never seen anyone ever say, "I know I'm safer"

Click to expand...

Veering off topic a little, TSA does not make me safer, TSA does not make me feel safer. It only serves to make people think the government is doing something while wasting tax dollars and my/their time.

I am more concerned of the risk of being injured or killed when traveling in Europe than in the United States.

Remember, one of the primary motivations for "Black Only Water Fountains" and for blacks to sit in the back of the bus; was for the "proper sophisticated white people' would 'feel' safe.

It is all bigotry at its core.

beatledog7 said:

It is also a fact that there is no inherent right to feel safe, nor is there an inherent right to feel anything.

Click to expand...

Well, if we have the right to life and liberty, I think it is reasonable to argue that we have the right to be safe--only to a degree, of course, because as you said complete safety is unachievable. The questions are the means and who decides how, as well as what is real safety versus merely fooling oneself into feeling safe. In a free country, the people should have the right to defend themselves using the most effective tools--this comes from the virtue of being a living creature, born of nature. It provides the most possible real safety as opposed to merely feeling safe, and it promotes the most liberty and self-determination, which should be the American way, while the other way that makes some people "feel safe" is the opposite, working against liberty, which is un-American.

beatledog7 said:

But let's say there were, and that I don't feel safe in "gun-free" zones. Since I have a right to enter them and in many cases am even required to enter them, they should be eliminated because they violate my inherent right to feel safe.

Click to expand...

That's a good point. While I argued above that we had some right to BE safe, through a combination of sensible laws (e.g. murder being illegal), effective law enforcement, and allowing the people to arm themselves as they individually deem fit, there is no right to FEEL safe--that is, you're free to feel any way you want, but there is no guarantee of how you'll feel. If the means are available to let you BE safe (as much as possible) as well as free, then that's all that matters. If a person irrationally fears guns and the idea of an armed populace--besides criminals who are armed anyway--then they're free to seek help, as well as take classes in reasoning and logic, but they shouldn't try to take away the fundamental, inalienable natural rights of the people.

beatledog7 said:

You can easily demonstrate how utterly silly this notion of a right to feel safe is. Somebody above mentioned fear of clowns. There are lots of people who are afraid of the dark, of dogs, of closed places, of open places, of water, of bridges, etc. And we have to admit, people have died in situations involving all of these things (except maybe clowns). So they can feel safe, we must create an environment in which people can live their lives without ever encountering a clown, the dark, a dog, an open space, a bridge...

See how silly that is?

Click to expand...

The human mind largely works on association, and it can be quite difficult for some people to logically separate certain things and ideas from one another when necessary. For instance, guns are, quite frankly, designed to kill living things, and killing people is generally considered a bad thing. This association, for some people, is virtually unbreakable--guns kill, killing is bad, so guns are bad, period. It doesn't matter how much logic you apply to the issue, this association will stubbornly persist nonetheless, especially after people transfer their fear of others to guns, as described above.

While the example you just gave may sound silly to a person who can reason to the point of breaking strong associations like this when presented with the facts, it's not so silly to others when GUNS specifically are involved. In short, they're fixated on guns as murder machines.