FMJ's for carry/defense anyone ?

Well, if the US military can use FMJ hand gun ammo in theatre,

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It's not a matter of can use but a matter of that's all they can use.

meanmrmustard said:

He was struck with an expanding bullet that is designed to repel an attacker or intruder, in which case the dead guy was one of either or both. No where on the box does it state the attacker must ALREADY be dead prior to use, so the color of the tip or name on the box is a non issue, especially since it is made by a reputable and well established ammo manufacturer. End of story.

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Ammunition that comes with a handy disclaimer (for the prosecution) RIGHT ON THE BOX where the manufacturer clearly states that this ammunition should NEVER be used on any living thing, vegetable or mineral.

Yes Z-max ammunition comes with a disclaimer saying its only for targets or things already dead. Have you actually taken time to read what's printed on the box?

In any endeavour where my attorney's job might entail keeping me from becoming incarcerated and thus being subject to suprise recital probings I will take every step to make his job easier that's practical.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

If you carry a 45 I doubt it really makes much difference. Plus FMJ feed very well so a stove pipe is very rare.

Disclaimer: Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is NOT a toy (IT IS LIVE AMMUNITION), but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that’s not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say Zombies, we mean…ZOMBIES!

Easy R. W., he said "end of story". That means the prosecution must throw up its hands and quit! I would be concerned about the conclusions that could be drawn, didn't consider the "victim" a human being. In the mind of a juror that could be construed as sociopathic, even racist depending on how you are painted. A modicum of prudence can go a long way.

Fortunately, we have myriad options for SD ammo (although the shelves are bare in many locales) that allow us to not have to carry such novelty stuff so I'd have to pass on the Hornady® Zombie Max™ except perhaps for range fun.

I am all for not complicating unnecessarily the process of defending myself in a court of law before an already uninformed jury pool.

Skylerbone said:

Easy R. W., he said "end of story". That means the prosecution must throw up its hands and quit! I would be concerned about the conclusions that could be drawn, didn't consider the "victim" a human being. In the mind of a juror that could be construed as sociopathic, even racist depending on how you are painted. A modicum of prudence can go a long way.

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You're stretching here. To assume that anyone using the ammo for HD/SD is sociopathic is, Zombies on the box or cutesy green tips or not, leaning a bit left. Do you assume that because a box of hollow point ammo doesn't have "specifically for killing intruders" on the box, that it is incriminating to use it for that purpose? Also, since we are talking carry/defense...why am I not on the prosecuting end of this spectrum?

If its what I have on hand, I'll use it to protect my family. I'd worry more about explaining why a specific bullet was used based on its superior killing effect over another, than the name of the round itself.

R.W.Dale said:

Disclaimer: Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is NOT a toy (IT IS LIVE AMMUNITION), but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that’s not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say Zombies, we mean…ZOMBIES!

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Zombies, as far as I know, do not exist. In which case your argument is invalid.

If you carry a 45 I doubt it really makes much difference. Plus FMJ feed very well so a stove pipe is very rare.

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It actually makes a huge difference in the wound it creates. FMJ isn't less prone to stove piping than JHP. That's on ejection, not feeding.

Ammunition that comes with a handy disclaimer (for the prosecution) RIGHT ON THE BOX where the manufacturer clearly states that this ammunition should NEVER be used on any living thing, vegetable or mineral.

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Don't most if not all gun manuals say not to point the gun at a person?

but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, Hornady® Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that’s not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody

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As pertinent to motive. You believed the person was a zombie, not human, less than human. Not saying it'll stick but tainted is tainted.

The Z-max is ballistically identical to Hornady Critical Defense. Different packaging and polymer tip color. The Zombie disclaimer is a gimmick for novelty on a live ammo, not a legal CYA for Hornady.

So Critical Defense was not chosen for its lack of "fun factor". Sadistic!

Only Hornady (or an independent expert) is at liberty to say whether the two lines of ammunition are ballistically identical. The prosecution won't be paying for their testimony so if you want that heard, guess who will be paying?

Remember that liberal judges are merely former liberal attorneys and many of them were prosecutors as well. Many of them could care less about the law, feeling anyone owning a firearm is fair game.

I "think" in the end at least in most states= what matters most is Did you have a legal right to shoot?

IF yes, then I seriously doubt caliber or projectile is going to matter you were defending your life or another's and that is "that".

IF no.......all bets are off you'll be charged and at that point I figure they'll do whatever they can to make you look "evil"

I see the Z-Max as pure novelty and I probably wouldn't even shoot it let alone load it in a defensive weapon. Why would you choose Z-Max over TAP? There is much less stigma with the latter and there is no worry over having your lawyer defend it.

What is overpenetration? Do you not want to ensure that your shots do the most possible damage? Even if a magical round existed that will reliably stop someone and never exit a human target (which it doesn't,) what about the shots you miss? It still wouldn't negate rule #4.

We carry JHP ammo because when you are fighting for your life, you wany every possible advantage you can get. However, the real world advantage isn't nearly as great as some people seem to think it is. I think, you would have to look at the very bottom of the scale (say, 115 gr 9mm fmj) compared to the very top (230 gr .45 HST) to see a significant difference. Big JHPs don't magically disintegrate people, and if you hit someone with a little JHP it will most certainly ruin their day. I would use the exact same plan no matter which one I happened to be carrying, and 99 times out of 100, I doubt there would be any difference.

If you carry a 45 I doubt it really makes much difference.

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There is a bit of disagreement on details, but some studies show .45 JHP is as much as 50% more effective than FMJ. Perhaps the difference is not really so great, but I'll take any small advantage it may offer.

Plus FMJ feed very well so a stove pipe is very rare.

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Any modern gun that won't reliably feed JHP should be returned to the manufacturer for serivce as it is obviously defective.

However, when you use correct tactics, (multiple hits to the center of mass,) the difference between them falls very quickly.

For a while there I carried alternating rounds...one JHP, one FMJ intending them for double tap use. Not sure why I did that, just wanted to be fancy I guess.

pa350z said:

Well, if the US military can use FMJ hand gun ammo in theatre, its good enough for me. In PA, with my G27, I use Federal Hydrashoks. When doing business up in CT and traveling through the PRNJ and the PRNY under Federal protection, I simply use my WWB FMJ ammo. Don't want to get stopped in PRNJ and have to explain and then end up in the back of a cruiser car. All IMHO.

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seriously? the military HAS to use FMJ. if we could use JHP we would, we're not allowed. Ask any guy who has shot a bad guy with FMJ if he would carry it if there were achoice.

When hollowpoints work they work great, they don't always expand. (filled with material etc.) A 9mm might expand a .45 will not shrink

Skylerbone said:

So Critical Defense was not chosen for its lack of "fun factor". Sadistic!

Only Hornady (or an independent expert) is at liberty to say whether the two lines of ammunition are ballistically identical. The prosecution won't be paying for their testimony so if you want that heard, guess who will be paying?

Remember that liberal judges are merely former liberal attorneys and many of them were prosecutors as well. Many of them could care less about the law, feeling anyone owning a firearm is fair game.

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Then said incident was doomed from the get go, regardless of ammo, if there is a stitch of fact to your assessment. If said liberal ex-lawyer-turned-judge is anti beforehand, my ammo choice is only one among many worries, if one at all.

If all I had on hand was Hornady U-Max: Only use on Unicorns! on hand to protect myself or my loved ones, you had better believe the BG(s) would be eating U Max bullets, even though I'm only supposed to use them for dispatching mythical horses cuz "the box says its for fictional creatures ONLY".

Don't use it: You have that right, to choose which ammo to defend yourself with.

What I'm saying is that a DA who is anti-gun may care less about your innocence so why give him ammo (literally) to crucify you with. Everyone is free to use what they like but I don't recommend ZombieMax or Double Tap as what is implied is negative. A jury may not believe it took 7 rounds center mass to stop the attacker. They may believe a prosecutor who claims your "victim" would have survived if you weren't so intent on double tapping him...over and over and over. Sure you have the right to defend yourself but not to kill if it's avoidable. If he convinces a jury you used excessive force...

Defending yourself from prosecution is no trivial matter. I recall as a youngster thinking I would never see my father again after a shooting and he was a LEO. Wouldn't wish that on any legitimate armed Citizen.

Regardless of ammo, handguns are underpowered. There is no such thing as knockdown power, so the odds of a one shot threat ender are slim. If you shoot till the threat has ended, whether the BG is living or dead at threats end, do you not believe that your anti DA will say you grossly overused force?

Do you argue that you used what you had on hand and shot enough of it to stop a murder/robbery/rape of yourself or family...or do you contemplate your ammo choice or how many rounds to fire while the aforementioned things are happening, hoping the law sees things your way while they put your loved ones in the ground...

Not me. I'll take responsibility for my actions so long as my family goes on. I'll shoot what I got, when I have to.

YMMV.

If all I had on hand was Hornady U-Max: Only use on Unicorns! on hand to protect myself or my loved ones, you had better believe the BG(s) would be eating U Max bullets, even though I'm only supposed to use them for dispatching mythical horses cuz "the box says its for fictional creatures ONLY".

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If that's all I had, then I did something completely wrong to run out of proper JHPs and promptly buy new ones ASAP.

do you contemplate your ammo choice or how many rounds to fire while the aforementioned things are happening

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Nope. I contemplate that well in advance. I realize handgun ammo is underpowered and will likely require several shots but a jury hooked on Hollywood may already believe without prompting that one shot knocks a man through a wall. That's why what you choose to carry can matter.