Gunsite Scout - What For?

xio2 said:

If you put the 30-30 in a bolt action, like the Savage or Remington 788, and load it up to its potential with a spitzer bullet, a 20" 30-30 will actually outperform a 16" 308, using factory ammo in the latter. I dont give a hoot for any 30-30, understand, just stating the ballistic facts of the matter.

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You do realize that a maximum load 150grn .30-30 coming out of a 24" barrel is only moving about 2300 fps. A .308 150 grn bullet is running somewhere in the mid 2900 fps coming out of the same length barrel. You're talking the difference between a 40,000 psi cartridge and a 60,000 psi cartridge with a much larger case capacity.

The .30-30 probably loses almost as much velocity going from 24" to 20" as the .308 loses going from 24" to 16". Heck, lets put it into perspective here. There's 200fps more difference between the .30-30 and the .308 than there is between the .308 and a .300 Win Mag. You're in a completely different class of cartridges, not comparable at all.

I like .30-30 just as much as the next guy, and have a rack of 94s chambered for it back home. Just keep in mind that it's only slightly more powerful than a 7.62x39, and really isn't suitable for shooting anything outside of 200 yards. Even inside of 200, you better make sure what you're shooting isn't biting back.

cal30, in a modern bolt-action, the .30-30 can be loaded to the same pressure as a .308. (Not that I'd bother, you understand.)

But let's get back on-topic, which is the Scout rifle.

Cooper's idea was centered on the .308. He later considered a larger-bore cartridge, but I disremember the details.

Anyhow, short and handy, seven pounds total weight and fast acquisition of a target all make sense to me as a concept. Arguing over relatively minor details seems sorta nit-picky. No law against picking nits, of course, but I don't get all emotional over them.

I personally like the Gunsite Scout rifle, particularly the full stainless variant with the 18" barrel. I guess I'm just different though, since traditional hunting bolt actions don't really turn me on. For one, I like my bolt gun to have iron sights, and that's something you won't find on the majority of bolt guns (that arent mil-surps) out there. I also like the idea of the removable magazine.

I plan on eventually getting one of the new stainless Gunsites as a general purpose rifle. It can cover a number of different situations well, and I just have an itch for a nnice newiron sighted bolt gun that I need to scratch.

Art Eatman said:

cal30, in a modern bolt-action, the .30-30 can be loaded to the same pressure as a .308. (Not that I'd bother, you understand.)

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Art, I've got a question about that. Please understand that I'm not trying to argue needlessly, and I don't want to get too far off topic, but I really don't know what the right answer to this question is.

Wouldn't the .30-30 still have to be loaded to lower pressures due to the design of the brass casing? It is my understanding that high PSI cartridges such as .270, .308, .30-06, .257 +P, etc., have a thicker cartridge case near the base to help deal with the higher pressures safely. It is my understanding that you need both a strong action to keep from blowing up in your face (and a good gas redirect in case a primer punctures, blows out, or a case head separates), as well as a strong enough brass casing to actually hold the pressure without head separation. I may be wrong, but that's the way I've always understood it. If that's the case, then no, you wouldn't be able to load a .30-30 to .308 pressures, even in a modern bolt action.

Also, Art, I'd agree on the heavier caliber. If you're going to shoot at closer ranges, I think you'd be much better served by something like the .358 Winnie. It loses a lot of the range of the .308, but hits a lot harder in close.

Then again, I've always wanted to build one in a 9x57 (with a modern .358 bore instead of the European .356). I think that would be the perfect use for a Mauser action turned into a Woods/Scout rifle. I believe I'd use receiver mounted peep sights though. No need for a scope with a trajectory like that.

Triumph, one of the answers to your original question is the difference in ballistics. Is a lever action .30-30 more handy in the brush? To most people, perhaps. Does the .30-30 have anywhere near the punch of a .308? Absolutely not.

The idea of the scout is a high-powered rifle in a handy, quick handling package. A .30-30 will do just fine against deer or other thin skinned game inside of 200 yds (although 200 is beginning to push it with a .30-30, IMO). If you have the potential of running into bigger stuff, or something capable of getting nasty if you wound it, I'd much rather have a .308.

Also keep in mind, the .308 moves a lot faster, even inside of 200 yards. If you're shooting at things that aren't sitting still, that extra velocity might be the difference in a hit or miss. It's a lot easier to lead with a faster bullet.

Those are the reasons that a .308 scout bolt gun exist, to fill the role better than a .30-30 lever could possibly hope to. It's in about the same weight and handling class, but hits with a much more potent cartridge. You could always compromise and get a Savage 99, but I think you'll find it no faster to work the action on one of those than a bolt gun. Somebody with some bolt action practice can be very fast.

Its going to be an excellent hog rifle for West Texas. I would have one now but I'm broke.

Triumph, I'm a big fan of the Savage rifles due to their interchangeability and low cost. I'd probably pick it out of the two. Simplicity would probably be better in that case.

Then again, if I was going to have something like that, I'd use a Mauser. If you could get an 8mm Mauser, cut the barrel down around 18" or so, grab a good used sporter stock, and put peeps on it, you'd be set. The 8x57 will hit harder than a .308, the action is a lot more rugged than the Savage, it will probably be cheaper, and it has the cool factor. I'd even go for a straight bolt model. That straight bolt can be lighting fast if you know what you're doing.

My personal brush/scout gun is a 6.5x55 M94 Swedish Mauser that's been sporterized. Williams peeps, 16.5" barrel, walnut sporter stock with a straight comb and pistol grip. I love the lightweight and quick handling of the small ring, and recoil is pretty light. I'd carry it anywhere in the lower 48. If I was headed to Canada or Alaska, I'd probably want a 8x57/.30-06 or better. However, I think as long as you aren't actively hunting big bears, a .308 class cartridge will do just fine.

Forget the .45 if the hogs charge though, I'm grabbing the 10mm, haha.

With all due respect to Col. Cooper (I loved the guy) the scout concept was an exercise in mental masturbation. He took a concept and expanded it and tried different things. He never really got it where he wanted it because it really didn't do anything better than a conventional rifle.

Had the idea been thought of in 1915, it may have been the ultimate rifle. In this day and age it is somewhat of an archaic and romantic notion of the glory days of bolt actions.

Having said that, I think it is good to push the parameters of design and function even if it is old technology. It was a fun and interesting concept to play around with. I built, owned or bought a number of scout rifles and while I like the compactness of them I never thought they did anything special.

Cooper's so-called Scout concept was nothing but a copy of an idea gun writer Pete Brown wrote about back in the 1960's. Attached is a photo of the cover of the 1966 Sports Afield Annual dated 1966, featuring Brown's "scout" rifle on the cover. Also an inside photo of Brown shooting the rifle. Years ago, when I was a newly graduated engineer working with experimental small arms at Aberdeen proving center, a long time engineer there told me that nothing is ever new in the gun world, and the older I get the more I believe what he said.

Someone on a forum (might have been here) said that the GSR wasn't a good execution of a scout rifle, but was a nice update of the Jungle Carbine idea.

That, to me, is the appeal, especially since I'm in a state likely to get hammered with EBR legislation. I've always wanted a Jungle Carbine, but never seen a real one in person (and price/availability of .303 is a non-starter).

When it came out I thought the Ruger GSR was kind of cool, but wasn't exactly what I would want in a scout rifle. The barrel was shorter than I like, it didn't take stripper clips, and I prefer a flush bottom rather than a protruding magazine for that type of rifle. I figured I could do better myself, for less money. So I bought a FR-8 Spanish Mauser:



And did this to it:





The red dot is a Bushnell TRS-25. It has a lower 1/3 co-witness with the irons.





It cost $380 or so, all told. The FR-8 is already a great rifle for this application... the only things I had to add were the XS scout mount and the Fajen synthetic stock. The syn stock wasn't really necessary, but it shaved several ounces and kept me from having to mutilate the nice mil surp wood to work with my scout mount and sling setup. Plus it looks mean as hell in all black. I am a big fan of the red dot sight for this type of rifle. It keeps the rifle nice and light, it is quicker on target than any other type of sight, it works great in the forward mounted position (leaving the action clear for stripper clips), and if you mount it low enough, like mine, you can see the iron sights right through the tube, so you don't have to remove the optic to transition to irons if it goes T.U. on you.

henschman said:

When it came out I thought the Ruger GSR was kind of cool, but wasn't exactly what I would want in a scout rifle. The barrel was shorter than I like, it didn't take stripper clips, and I prefer a flush bottom rather than a protruding magazine for that type of rifle. I figured I could do better myself, for less money. So I bought a FR-8 Spanish Mauser, and this is what I came up with:

The red dot is a Bushnell TRS-25. It has a lower 1/3 co-witness with the irons.

It cost $380 or so, all told. The FR-8 is already a great rifle for this application... the only things I had to add were the XS scout mount and the Fajen synthetic stock. The syn stock wasn't really necessary, but it shaved several ounces and kept me from having to mutilate the nice mil surp wood to work with my scout mount and sling setup. Plus it looks mean as hell in all black. I am a big fan of the red dot sight for this type of rifle. It keeps the rifle nice and light, it is quicker on target than any other type of sight, it works great in the forward mounted position (leaving the action clear for stripper clips), and if you mount it low enough, like mine, you can see the iron sights right through the tube, so you don't have to remove the optic to transition to irons if it goes T.U. on you.

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IMO, that is a lot more practical rifle than the Rugers or Savages that have been discussed. It'll hold up to every bit of abuse that you could ever throw at it. Don't know if I personally would have gone with the red dot, but I like everything else. Good work.

Thanks! You are right, there is just no beating the Mod. 98 action for reliability. That was another factor that led me away from the commercial rifles.

Yeah, a lot of people miss having the magnification, but nothing beats a red dot up close, and that's where most shots take place. I have killed plenty of critters with iron sights, and a red dot beats irons in every way except durability (hence the co-witnessed irons).

My Dad was skeptical at first too (he is an old fart who can't see very well, and figured he needed the magnification), but once he got to shooting my AR with a red dot, he ended up putting one on his too.

They are out there. Try armslist and gunbroker.

I will not argue parity between the 30-30 and the .308 as the .308 is indeed a different class of cartridge in pressure, velocity and range. But at what point in the last hundred years did animals in NA begin growing armor? Because 170 gr RNSP traveling at @ 2,000 fps will kill anything in NA. And 150gr out any 30-30 lever gun will kill any deer at any range that more than 95% of hunters can hit a damn thing. If you are in the 5% that can ethically hunt outside 200 yds, then the 30-30 may not be for you.

I really like my GSR. I do not have a safe full of modern rifles and so the GSR is great for me. Plus, it looks great!

Man I ask, "what not for?" I was immediately impressed with the Ruger GSR, and plain tickled when I learned they offered it in left hand. It quickly jumped to the top of my list, but I never intended to use a forward mounted scope. I was thinking about putting this;

http://americancopmagazine.com/xs-scout-rifle-scope-rail/
http://www.tactical-store.com/ts-bu-rs-eltc67.html

on it...

I realize that gets kind of expensive, but the advantages of a good 1-4 or 1-6 power FFP scope with an intelligent reticle far outweighs any speed advantages the forward mounted optic may or may not afford. The primary advantage of the forward mounted optic as I understand it was that it allowed access to the receiver for a stripper clip mechanism to top the magazine off. The design of the Ruger magazine is apparently durable and reliable, but does not allow the use of stripper clips or afford any other mechanism to top the magazine off. They instead stick to a more popular and industry proven magazine design. This means a practical and available detachable magazine setup was more important to them than staying dead-on with Cooper's original design and using a stripper clip mechanism, even if it meant drastic alterations and/or propietary and less available technology, i.e a heavy modified M-14 magazine and/or a heavily modified Mauser action. I think this is a good bet on Ruger's part given that they obvously intend for this to be a versitile rifle appealing to a wide range of uses. I think Col. Cooper would begrudgingly accept it in the face of modern optical technology as well.

Were I to be able to scratch this one off "the list," I could envision it using for general big game hunting (deer/elk), truck rifle, as a backpacking rifle, and as a decent social rifle. It definetely would not replace my Mossberg for home defense, but if it ever moved to much across the driveway, I'd break it out. Other uses I could see it being used for given the opprotunity is as a dandy pig rifle, esp in areas where a suppressor and night vision set up would be more acceptabley viewed, or as a patrol/squad car trunk rifle in areas where assault rifles may not be favorably viewed by the community or in rural areas where the officer may be called on to handle both indigenous wildlife as well as personel. In some ways the GSR might be more considered a light tactical rifle more than a Scout rifle by strict Cooper definition, but I think I like it and Cooper would too.