So, NY police officers are superior...

Yet again, folks thinking that LEOs are "super citizens" with more rights than the "ordinary" citizens they serve and protect.

And if you shot 9 innocent bystanders while trying to shoot a murderer at a distance of 8 feet, you'd never see the light of day as a free man.

But if you are a cop in NYC... Well, they can accept a certain amount of collateral damage.

Cops have had special treatment in the courts practicaly forever. If YOU had walked up and repeatedly brain shot a couple of unarmed, bledout felons, who were just trying to escape, (ie, Platt and Matix, in Miami) the way Mirules did, you'd be doing 20+ years in prison.

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Two felons who had murdered two FBI agents, and wounded how many other?

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if he realizes that the bad guys won't obey the law, why does he 'see the importance' of it?
Evidently he doesn't like the idea of law abiding citizens being armed.

oldbear said:

Two felons who had murdered two FBI agents, and wounded how many other?

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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His point is that a civilian doing the same would be thrown in prison.

Every cop/pro-cop person I've argued with acknowledges the cops operate under a different set of laws. Of course that completely nullifies any claim they make about how they are civilians like the rest of us plebs. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

xio... I'm a pretty tolerant guy but your comments about Platt and Matix are either misguided or deliberately false... I was working that day - and it was as bad as it gets....

By the way before that final confrontation... those two guys obtained vehicles to do bank robberies by finding folks by themselves and then shooting them instead of just robbing them to take their cars.... That's how they got the car they were in that day and the fellow they killed was a gun owner out plinking by himself.... They were spotted since the task force was specifically looking for that car.

Yes, you can always find injustice if you look, and yes, there are police involved cases that no one could defend. What happened that day wasn't one of them. If I'd been in charge of that takedown I'd like to think that not one cop or agent would have been shot... but the outcome for the bad guys wouldn't have changed one bit.... Most departments in south Florida worked long and hard to upgrade their tactics after that incident. It changed minds at every level of law enforcement... When Mirales finished those two they'd already killed or wounded every officer or agent present and Mirales, himself, was so badly wounded that he could barely hold the shotgun he used (and had to rack it one handed while trying not to pass out from his wounds...).

Two felons who had murdered two FBI agents, and wounded how many other?

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Don't change the fact that you'd still be in prison for shooting them.

So this NY governor can say a law does not apply to police, even though the bill he signed into law does say it applies to police?

That is not how a constitutional republic works. The governor does not make the laws.

So what next, will the governor say that the 7 round law does not apply to Brinks and Loomis for their armored car guards that carry semi auto handguns? What will those companies be doing with this law in place?

xio2 said:

And Matix never killed anybody that day and in fact barely participated in the fight, getting off only 1 shot from his 12 ga, with ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hitting an agent in the ankle, IIRC. then he got shot in the head by a .38 snub, and it didn't penetrate his skull! . but the blow did render him unconscious for a minuter or two. I got all the facts, dude. Do you?

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The only way you'd have all the facts is if you were there during the entire thing. Were you?

If you got your facts from a reputable source, please, share them for the rest of us.

xio2 said:

And Matix never killed anybody that day and in fact barely participated in the fight, getting off only 1 shot from his 12 ga, with ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hitting an agent in the ankle, IIRC. then he got shot in the head by a .38 snub, and it didn't penetrate his skull! . but the blow did render him unconscious for a minuter or two. I got all the facts, dude. Do you?

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Well, then, Matix- accessory to murder, just as guilty.

So what if you were there, I'm sure you would have just stopped shooting at that point, since you are apparently an expert on when a proven murderer is no longer a threat.

Those agents had a duty to stop the threat by whatever means were necessary. I think it is painfully obvious they were not going to drop their guns and surrender peacefully.

Hindsight is 20/20

allaroundhunter said:

and a double-standard is most certainly evident...

http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/18/cops-are-outraged-that-new-yorks-new-mag#comment

NY police officers are also (according to the new law) not allowed to own 'high capacity' magazines.... However, according to Cuomo, that "Effective Immediately" part does not apply to them...

My favorite part? Here are the reasons that the police need more ammunition than 'regular' civilians:



Wait, isn't that what we have been saying all along?

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Reminds me of an anti's argument I heard on Hannity's radio show yesterday, I believe. The caller was trying to make the point that a "trained shooter" doesn't need "high cap" magazines to defend themselves against an attacker.

Too bad that Hannity didn't make the counter argument "police are more trained than anyone else, so they shouldn't need "high cap" magazines either.!!"

If anyone is a Glock owner here, how can we influence Glock (or any other Manf.) not to sell over 7 round mags to NYC?

And Matix never killed anybody that day and in fact barely participated in the fight, getting off only 1 shot from his 12 ga, with ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hitting an agent in the ankle,

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So if someone fired a shotgun at you and only ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hit you in the ankle, that would not warrant you to draw your gun to defend yourself? I am reading this right that attempted murder doesn't warrant equal or greater force used in response?

Yeah, getting sucked into the high-cap vs. no-high-cap mag argument is a no-win situation at best.

Point being, regardless of the prevailing gun laws in the country in which they reside, each of these "mass killers" seem to almost always be high-functioning individuals (albeit with known mental health issues in most cases) who do whatever it takes to "train" and arm (legally or illegally) themselves in such a way that they can create the carnage that they desire, whether it be using high-cap mags, multiple reloads, multiple guns and/or explosives.

Solution.

LEOs check out high capacity mags when starting shift and turn them in at the end.

You may carry neutered matazines off duty and at home. I'd bet that some of the Unions, Pollice chiefs and Sheriffs would suddenly stop supporting restrictions on citizens.

xio2 said:

Cops have had special treatment in the courts practicaly forever. If YOU had walked up and repeatedly brain shot a couple of unarmed, bledout felons, who were just trying to escape, (ie, Platt and Matix, in Miami) the way Mirules did, you'd be doing 20+ years in prison. If YOU had fired 15 rds at a man who had nothing in his hand but a wallet (ie, Diallo in NYC) you'd be doing life, without a doubt.

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I agree that there are differing standards, but what the FBI agents did to "finish" those two killers wasn't a summary execution - it was a continuation of the self-defense action they were fighting for those terrifying minutes. If you're wounded, adrenalized, scared and maybe a bit confused, I could hardly blame you for not making a fine distinction between a shooter who's about to draw yet another weapon or use their "getaway" car to run you over, vs. aggressors that are ready to finally give up.

If anything the North Hollywood shootout showed a bit of callousness - one of the shooters was allowed to bleed out and wasn't given any on-scene medical attention. (The other shooter died in a spectacularly grisly coincidence when he suicided and was hit by a police marksman at the same time).

The "Miami shootout" involved a mix of uniform cops, plainclothes officers, and FBI agents. If I remember correctly it was 7 or 9 badges up against two offenders. The two managed to kill two FBI agents and wound every other cop on the scene before finally being killed. Folks that lived in the neighborhook called it in as a drug war....

The guy who finally put them down was a badly wounded county officer....

I was north of there that day working the street with my crew in uniform (at that time there were 27 different police departments in Dade county - I worked for one of the cities in the north end of the county). That entire incident was studied and dissected over and over by everyone in the area for several years... By then I was a lieutenant and in charge of training for my outfit. We did everything we could to make sure that dangerous incidents like that were handled differently. The idea was always that the good guys got to go home in one piece while the bad guys usually quit because they were facing overwhelming force, carefully planned and executed... the last thing anyone wanted then and now is some kind of wild movie type shootout - since the good guys don't always win if it comes to that.

Pray to god that you're never involved in that kind of situation.... I can't express how glad I am to be out of that line of work.

His point is that a civilian doing the same would be thrown in prison.
Don't change the fact that you'd still be in prison for shooting them.

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Any civilian who had shot either Platt or Matix as Mirules did would have been using deadly force to protect the life of another. In addition Mirules also was acting under the fleeing rule that allowed deadly force to be used to stop a fleeing felon.

The "Miami shootout" involved a mix of uniform cops, plainclothes officers, and FBI agents. If I remember correctly it was 7 or 9 badges up against two offenders. The two managed to kill two FBI agents and wound every other cop on the scene before finally being killed.

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The 1986 Platt/Matix shootout involved 8 plainclothes FBI agents. No uniformed officers were present and no other LEOs were present.
The 2 dead agents were Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove. The 5 wounded agents were Gordon McNeill, Ed Mireles, John Hanlon, Dick Manauzzi, and Gil Orrantia. Agent Ron Risner is the only one who was not injured.

From Dr. W. French Anderson's book "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight".

Quote:
"As a law enforcement officer for over 20 years, I understand the importance of instituting a new policy on mandating the limits of bullets that a regular citizen can possess, but as a matter of fact the bad guys are not going to follow this law," said Norman Seabrook, president of the correction officers union, the city's second largest.

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Since we don't have the rest of the article this could have been taken out of context. My first though was that this CO was being sarcastic, mocking his subversive governor and his unConstitutional gun law.

c1ogden said:

Since we don't have the rest of the article this could have been taken out of context. My first though was that this CO was being sarcastic, mocking his subversive governor and his unConstitutional gun law.

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I don't think he would have his job very long if that was the case.

I hope pro-gun Tom Selleck addresses this foolishness in the "Blue Bloods" series. That would be a good poke at NY and their politics. I guess I'm a dreamer.

I had a City of Houston police car - same driver - pass me on a local toll road 2 days in a row doing 120 mph+ (scaring the crap out of me) - no siren or lights. When I came up to the toll booth, he's just there shooting the breeze with the attendants. Two days in a row. I called the HPD to file a complaint. THe person's I spoke to's response? "Houston police do not have to obey any traffic laws...PERIOD" When I started to talk...the guy said "what part of that don't you understand?" So, yeah, I believe it.

Note - this was the "Community Relations" officer I was talking to.

If the police NEED high capacity magazines, then I do to. We are defending ourselves against the same criminals, who they have acknowledged, will not follow the law.