1858 .36 with .38 Special conversion cylinder, warmer loads?

Busyhands94 said:

And also, what diameter roundball mold would be needed to make into a .38 heeled bullet mold?

Click to expand...

ofitg posted about making a heeled bullet for use with a .38 Special conversion cylinder by modifying a .380 RB mold:

DIY Heeled Bullet Mould?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=695107#post8641003

What a coincidence I just ordered a 38 spec conversion cylinder for my 36 NMA 1858, just not the gated kind as I have read they require a little more fitting to instal and can affect the timing if you go back to the C&P cylinder (which I would like to be able to do.) From my understanding others have found good accuracy with the LRNHB and SWCHB rounds expanding to fill the rifling. as far as loading I have hodgins loading manual and plan on using the cowboy loads for my reloads using win231 powder. I believe if you are using true black powder loads (someting I also want to try) then the only limitations would be the case size.

also wanted to mention that I believe that the load data list the win 231 charge at 3.7gr and pushing a 158 lswc at 834fps. The max fps is given by Universal powder at 4.5gr and pushing the same projectile to 974fps. They list many other powders but if you are just begining in reloading then I would suggest using some Trail Boss powder first as it has a large volume and makes it hard to overload the case while still performing in the same class with the faster burning powders for the 38 spec in cowboy loads. Good luck.

Me, I'd stick with standard .38 special, no +P stuff. The frame is kinda thin around the rammer. I wouldn't push things. Nothing wrong with standard .38 loads, though, ain't broke.

When the cylinder gets here, no problem on taking the pictures and posting them.

As for the Lee loader I will reserve the right to get someone elses answer.

the link to the DIY mold doesn't seem to be working....

MC, if I remember right, even the 38 spl loads far exceed the recommended "cowboy" loads. But I say go for it. Pump em up to 357 pressures and see what happens. After all, It's not my gun or eyesight.

Well, me, I'll keep shooting BP/Pyrodex. I have a .44, though. I have .38s if I wanna shoot .38 and I have loaders, couple of progressives even. For "classic", I'll just take the S&W M10 out back for a few rounds.

In .38, my standard plinker is 2.7 grains Bullseye under a 148 Lee cast wadcutter. Very accurate and easy on the guns. I carry +P in my snubby, but don't shoot many of 'em.

McGunner I agree with the not pushing it to much with the cart conversion, I just gave the lad an idea (Levi keep in mind what I qouted was the max and you should never start at the max load) I also shoot 38's out of my snubby CCW and reload for that, for cheap and fun practice. Got the conversion to see if I could try something a little different and figured I all ready have the dyes and all for 38 so why not.

P.S. I use the Lyman reloading tool. I think Duelist1954 has a video on it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=610186&highlight=lyman+reloading+tool

Here is a link to the above mentioned.

Pure soft lead expands amazingly well.

I want a .45ACP cylinder for MY Remmy in the future. I'm waiting on two spare .44 cylinders from Cabelas at the moment, though. I like the idea of .45ACP in it, got more brass than Colt and I couldn't ever screw up and put a +P in it that I load for my Blackhawk. That might not end well if I ever did that. They're loaded hot with 2400 and will make a .44 magnum beg for mercy. Actually, the light load might be a might hot for a Remmy, 8.3 grains Unique and a 255 flat point. All the .45ACP I load is standard. And, besides, I don't have a revolver in the caliber since I got rid of my 1917 Smith.

A cartridge conversion would be way cool, though, for the Remmy. I wouldn't get the loading gate, either, as I wanna shoot caps. I just think they're REALLY classy guns, though, and like 'em even more than the '73 Colt for looks.

MCgunner,


YOU WHAT?!?!?! GOT RID OF A 1917 S&W!?!?!?!?

You have no soul.....or you got real hungry.... The .45 Black hawk I had was a prevertable and I shot more .45 ACP in it than .45 Long Colt (there i said it, nenner!) Of course some of the ACP I loaded just for the Ruger would have blown brass out the feed ramp cut on an 1911. At a hand gun class range day the cheif instructor was explainng the difference between Magnums and Vinella to a class and he had placed two milk juggs full of watter down range. With out consulting me he announced he would shoot one with his Ruger BH in .44 Magunum with factory ammo and that I would shoot the other with my old fashion .45 LC chambered BH. He fired his shot and the expected happened . I tried to explain but he shushed me and said to shoot so I fired one of my even Elmer would blanch at shooting .45LC handloads at the other jug....my jug was in worse shape after the shot than his and I had to explain to the class the danger of assuming and of being sure of your ammo.

As I have gotten older I have realized the folly of such loads and speak of them only it indicate the insanity that youth are prone to.

No way would I try to hot rod a C&B BP conversion unit on ANY reproduction or original gun. I don't see anything to be gained by it and the idea of testing to failure.....well I have had severe hand and eye wounds enough already thank you very much, to say nothing of the possible danger of injury to say attractive female cousins (that's a hint there Busyhands).

-kBob

In all of my conversions (I'm a Remington man myself) I keep my loads to BP loads only. While the Remington design is stronger than the Colt conversions, I still really haven't seen much of a point to hot-rodding a round that will never be called on to do much more than poke a hole in paper or ring steel. Don't need a souped up +P load for that unless you like pre-mature wear, damaged parts or even having a kaboom failure right there in your hand!
When it comes to the .38 conversions, I have settled on a Rapine 158 grain RNFP-HB mould and pure soft lead. Upon firing, the hollow base expands to grip the rifling much the same way a minie-ball does with my musket and provides acceptable accuracy. I just run them through the lubri-sizer giving them a good shot of SPG to fill up the grooves and load them like normal. The SPG is kept inside the case where it stays until I fire those rounds.
Yeah, I could have went with a heel base bullet design and it would be more "period correct" but they come with their own set of problems. Lubing the bullet is really not much more than dipping the bullet into melted lube but when you are dealing with BP loads and using the softer SPG bullet lube, it can become a mess real fast! There is also the problem of trying to keep the lube on the bullets and when exposed to the elements, the lube that actually manages to stay on the bullet is also a great magnet for any dirt or debris they come into contact with.

Aren't these 38 kits chambered for 38 Colt & not 38 Spl?

Nope, a quick look at Kirst's web site lists them as being rated for .38 Special. They also mention they are for use only in steel framed revolvers and only loaded with black powder or a cowboy load equivelant cartridge so no, your run of the mill ammo is a no-go and +P is right out as well. Kirst also points out the bore differences between a C&B revolver and the .357" bullets used in modern ammo and also suggest using a lead hollow based bullet.
Now will they shoot .38 Colt? Yup, got a few pieces of brass around here from years ago. But with the higher price of .38 Colt, I really don't think I'd bother with buying any more of it.

I beilive you nailed it with the pressure curve. also keep in mind that round balls weigh a lot less than most bullets do. I think Round balls for a 36 are around 80ish grains (could be wrong) while most 38 spec rounds are from 125grs to 158grs.
Simple physics more weight requires more force which equates to more pressure.

P.S. still waiting on my cylinder. Midway USA said they were swamped with orders and would get it out as soon as possible.

UP to regular .38Spl pressure I can see. But I would not want to push an 1858 frame past that.

Since 1858's are more correct in .44Cal a more fair comparison to round vs bullet weights would be the .454 cast round ball vs .38Spl bullet weights in terms of recoil. A .457 round ball is 144.5 gns after averaging 5 of them. So call it 144gns since a lot of folks use .454 and the rest .457. That's pretty much in the middle between 124 and 158gn .38Spl bullets.

But smokeless tends to punch with more of a sharper crack then proper BP. So it's likely that the pressure peak from a .38Spl with a 158gn bullet is as high or at least sharper than a black powder charge with a .454/.457 round ball. The key is to not go appreciably over the peak pressure of the black stuff. And from what I've felt from shooting some +P rounds from a .357 revolver this WOULD be the case. So up to a fairly stout .38Spl I suspect would be just fine. But don't go over into the +P area.

Your posts seem to jump around a bit. But if you're shooting hollow back heeled bullets from suitable casings then you really want to avoid the sort of peak pressures from stout .38Spl rounds with that sort of direction. The hollow back is designed to force the bullet to engrave into the rifling at lower pressures. Loading them up more stoutly is going to really push that riding skirt hard into the bore. The pressures that result from that seem like an instant recipe for leading.

Howdy Busyhands.......

You won't hurt the Kirst 38 cylinder with BP and yes you can load to equal the cap and ball with a light heel bullet and the correct length case.

Why not try my 41 "re" conversion? Really makes a firearm out of the Navy.

Take a look here also for a Heel Base Loading tutorial I put up some years back:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24196.0.html

Of course ready made moulds, sizers and special crimping dies are all available.

Good Luck on the journey!

HH