Tom on Guntalk said 380 was now comparable to 9

I carry a 380. It is a very good round. I have no doubts on its capablities or my own.

There is only so much you can do with it. It has neither the bullet weight nor the speed of even a feeble 9mm Luger. Its "niche" is that it fits better into little pocket guns ... which reduce its speed even further. To say it is "comparable" - as in the sense of being equal - is not correct.

I have to disagree with this. When you consider using a 9mm +P JHP ammo the .380 doesn't come close. Gun makers have 9mm +P rated guns. The .380 doesn't have a +P rating

I would say it depends on the ammunition used. Several years ago I bought a Sig in .380. Using standard ammo it would not exit a 5 gallon bucket from about 25 feet. The bullet would penetrate the first layer of bucket bubt would only make a severe dimple in the back side. I reloaded that brass using some accurate #2 near the maximum loading and it made a huge difference in penetration and drop on a 25 yard target. I think a .380 with a good load is plenty lethal.

I carried a walther for 20 years, they are good rounds, But the 9mm is better. It's that simple, you may want a 380 as either a back up or for concealment, but a 9 is a few hundred feet faster, so why bother anymore? I carry a shield in 40, only because why not carry the hotter load in a walther sized gun that weighs less, and is thinner, same with the xzs, it's smaller and lighter than most 380's exept a seacamp or lcp, and hit's almost twice as hard.
We carried the smallest effective guns we could get 20-30 years ago, now you can get a small higher powered gun, so there is no reason to settle for a 380.

It's kind of like saying those family cars are very comparable to sports cars in performance.

If you are comparing today's family car to sports cars of 40-50 years ago, it might be true.

When I was a kid I remember my dad calling his .380 a "9mm short". He and my grandfather are the only 2 people I've ever heard say that, so it may just be something that they came up with. Has anyone else ever heard of a .380 referred to that way?

Ranger Roberts said:

When I was a kid I remember my dad calling his .380 a "9mm short". He and my grandfather are the only 2 people I've ever heard say that, so it may just be something that they came up with. Has anyone else ever heard of a .380 referred to that way?

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Sure, also 9mm Kurz which translates to the same thing. I think I've even seen it on Walther roll marks. Look closely at a PPK next time you run into one

Ranger Roberts said:

When I was a kid I remember my dad calling his .380 a "9mm short". He and my grandfather are the only 2 people I've ever heard say that, so it may just be something that they came up with. Has anyone else ever heard of a .380 referred to that way?

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In Europe, at least at one time, .380 was often called 9mm Kurz. Kurz is German for "short. So, yes.

From wiki

Synonyms
.380 Auto
9mm Browning
9mm Browning Short
9mm Corto
9mm Court
9mm Kratak
Kratka 9 (Devetka)
9mm Kurz
9mm Scurt
9mm Short
9×17mm

As a side note 380 will fire out of a 9mm, it just won't cycle the gun.

Don't ask how I know this

Synonyms
.380 Auto
9mm Browning
9mm Browning Short
9mm Corto
9mm Court
9mm Kratak
Kratka 9 (Devetka)
9mm Kurz
9mm Scurt
9mm Short
9×17mm

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I've bought ammo that said 9mm Browning Court.

Barrel length plays a big role here and is not being mentioned.

Perhaps even more so if you can only have 7 rounds in the magazine..

When in doubt go bigger, faster, or harder. During the first AWB a lot of new 1911 manufacturers were started. If you were only able to have 10 rounds in a mag, many said "then I'll carry a 1911 with 10 of the biggest and hardest hitting .45 acp rounds I can put in my firearm". I don't care for "within a few inches", when your life is on the line seconds and inches count. I want to stop and incapacitate an attacker as fast as possible. Taking any possible doubt out of a deadly serious equation is the best idea.

Here are some energy ratings for reference:

.22 lr- 30 grain fmj or hp (Aguila Supermaximum Hyper Velocity) 1750 fps with 204 ft lbs of energy

.380 acp-90 grain ftx 1000 fps 200 ft lbs of energy (Hornady Critical Defense)
- +P 90 grain jhp 1200 fps 288 ft lbs of energy (Buffalo Bore, the best that I know of)

9x19mm- 115 grain fmj 1145 fps 335 ft lbs of energy (Remington UMC plinking ammo)
- +P 124 grain jhp 1225 fps 413 ft lbs of energy (Buffalo Bore)

The difference in energy isn't a small amount. 9mm has 100 or more ft lbs over the .380, but the .380 is less than 100 ft lbs over the lowly .22lr. All of these will hurt someone, but rapidly incapacitating and the stopping of an attacker is what you want. Will the .380 work, probably. But I would rather be on the safe side.

I have watched several youtube ballstic gel tests using both the 380 and 9mm.
Generally with hollowpoints the 380 penetrates 8-11 inches.
For some strange reason it's the old Federal Hydra-Shok that gets out there to 11-11.5 inches and still expands.
I have seen something similiar on the UMC 88 grain Hollow point too.
With fmj the 380 goes clean thru the 19 inch gelatin block.
The 9mm hollowpoints almost always gets to at least the 12 inch mark.

If you take two similar bullets (i.e. both Speer Gold Dot) and have a .380 that failed to expand and a 9mm that expanded...you'll get similar penetration.

what barrel lengths are the .380's being shot out of? what about the 9mm? just curious.

My guess is he's comparing about the hottest +P self-defense .380 rounds with off the shelf 9mm target ammo and then calling it almost as good.

I seriously doubt that at equal tiers they are comparable. Don't get me wrong - I carry a .380 and don't feel undergunned with it, but I still am under no illusions that its as powerful as 9x19.

Several tests I have seen with the results I mentioned are 380's such as the LCP,Kel Tec P3AT and the Kahr.
All of these barrels are under 3 inches with the Kahr being the shortest at 2.5 inches.
Several on the 9mm use the Glock 19,Diamondback DB9 and the Kahr PM9.

mgmorden said:

My guess is he's comparing about the hottest +P self-defense .380 rounds with off the shelf 9mm target ammo and then calling it almost as good.

I seriously doubt that at equal tiers they are comparable.

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That is why I put the info up for Two .380 factory loads that are what most would consider the best that they offer.

Even the 9mm plinking ammo has more energy than the best .380 acp.


.380 acp-90 grain ftx 1000 fps 200 ft lbs of energy (Hornady Critical Defense)
- +P 90 grain jhp 1200 fps 288 ft lbs of energy (Buffalo Bore, the best that I know of)

9x19mm- 115 grain fmj 1145 fps 335 ft lbs of energy (Remington UMC plinking ammo)
- +P 124 grain jhp 1225 fps 413 ft lbs of energy (Buffalo Bore)