The logic behind "What caliber for bear defense?" threads.

Evergreen said:

A gun simply cannot kill a bear, they have become resistant to the lead I am told. Their bodies deflect most of the bullets anyway. Pepper spray only makes their poop spicier.

The best thing perhaps would be taking classes in bear communication, where you can learn skills of reasoning, persuasion and discussion with the bears. There was this one guy who hung out with grizzlies in Alaska who was very effective at doing this. Sadly, one day his negotiating skills fell through and well, he ended up in a bear's stomach.

It also doesn't hurt to take somebody along with you and a 22.. Basically, you can outrun the other guy if the communication tactics fail.



An AR for bear defense?? Good luck.. Yeah , I heard another guy who says only to use 45 ball ammo, as you get more shots off.. I'd take his advice over the advice of an AR. I don't like his advice either.

Show me a link where a single guy with an AR took down an 800lb tiger. Grizzly bears have thicker fur and mass than your average jungle tiger anyhow. The Indochinese tigers our soldiers may have encountered in Vietnam, in general, weighed 250-400lbs, about the same as Black bears do here in Oregon and Washington.

Click to expand...

Actually an AK-47 could be a reasonable bear gun since many 30-30's have taken large griz. A .223?? No, not what I would want with large griz but even that would be better than a sling shot or harmonica.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=424481&highlight=harmonica

40 rod said:

Here in WA we don't worry about bear attacks, but if I were out bushwacking in AK and needed a bear defense gun l'd carry an AR carbine with hardball in a highcap mag . I realise that this goes against conventional wisdom , and I do not suggest HUNTING bear with an AR
IIRC the m16a1 was used sucsesfully against tigers in Viet Nam. Multiple hits COM should work as good as anything. In a scenario with a bear threatning but not yet attacking it might even be a good to blast a few rounds into the earth just to make noise. I'd just as soon not shoot a bear if I could scare it off.

Thats my plan. I am sure someone will be glad to point out my folly.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I live about 10 minutes from the border of WA and the bears in WA are just as numerous as the bears across the border in ID.

Bear attacks are quite rapid. Considering shooting into the ground with only one or two seconds to respond to a charge within 15 yards is not likely a feasible approach. .223 is not the ideal caliber.

Many bears are not at all intimidated by the sound of gun shots. Might get lucky with that approach, but I don't think most folks would recommend it.

My brother killed a black bear with a .22. Of course it wasn't PO'd or charging. Give them a chance to pump a little adrenaline into their system and it is much harder to knock them down.

I suspect if you were stalking a bear and got a nice clean shot into the boiler room with 5.56, that would be one thing. Shooting one at 15 yds that has a great big attitude problem would a much different story.

This is a really good bear discussion. How about something totally sublime, surreal, and tranquil:

John3921 said:

My brother killed a black bear with a .22. Of course it wasn't PO'd or charging. Give them a chance to pump a little adrenaline into their system and it is much harder to knock them down.

I suspect if you were stalking a bear and got a nice clean shot into the boiler room with 5.56, that would be one thing. Shooting one at 15 yds that has a great big attitude problem would a much different story.

Click to expand...

I saw video a while back of a man who hid right next to the bait barrel and shot a black bear point blank behind the ear and dropped on the spot. Probably not a very smart hunting strategy, but yes, of course a .223 with the right shot placement up the nose (no not with a rubber hose, sorry) or behind the ear would likely drop a bear in its tracks. Using that for a COM shot on the other hand?? No, not my cup of tea.

Whats wrong with these?

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/blackmagic.html

If you must carry an AR for grizzly bear defense, please consider this one:


Nemo AR-300 Win Mag..


Alaska444.. I agree an AK can possibly be a decent bear defense gun, although I still would not use it as my first choice in big grizzly country.

On a serious note, I carry a S&W 460 on my chest and that would just be my backup if I was hiking where there is lot of grizz. High powered rifle all the way.

Evergreen said:

If you must carry an AR for grizzly bear defense, please consider this one:

Nemo AR-300 Win Mag..


Alaska444.. I agree an AK can possibly be a decent bear defense gun, although I still would not use it as my first choice in big grizzly country.

On a serious note, I carry a S&W 460 on my chest and that would just be my backup if I was hiking where there is lot of grizz. High powered rifle all the way.

Click to expand...

+1, I agree. High powered rifle all the way.

My combo is a my Marlin .444 with 335 gr Buffalo Bore and my Ruger Super Redhawk in cross carry bandolier with BB 340 +P+.

My likelihood of encountering a large grizzly here in Northern Idaho is fortunately low, but not zero. The .444 is easy to handle, packs a good punch and is quite reliable with fast follow up shots.

The AK with 7.62x39 is at a threshold as far as the "black rifles" goes. I wouldn't want a .223 instead if faced with a large grizzly. Many folks in Alaska have faced off with a 30-30 in such a situation and came out on top. That is way under gunned in most folks opinions, but look how many griz have been taken with that rifle.

My choice is to get above 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy with a large hard cast bullet. Many ways to skin that cat with that criteria so to speak. That is essentially starting at 30-06 level and above. Once again, my dad never felt under gunned with his 30-06 in all the years he hunted in the Alaska wilderness, often times flying in to the hunting grounds with a friend. One he did on horseback.

I used to carry a Marlin .45-70 in the Idaho backcountry, to use against a brown bear, if required. I reached a point where I had to significantly lighten my trail load, and one of the first things to go was the Marlin. I asked a number of experienced backcountry campers, and a few rangers, what handgun round would do. The comment about filing down the front sight was made a lot. I settled on a Hamilton Bowen-modified Ruger Redhawk in .500 Linebaugh. The BEST advice I got about how to use it was to shoot early and shoot often. As others in this thread have said, "stopping" a charging bear is tougher than just shooting it. If the bear charges from close in, I think a RedEye rocket would be best.
I'm happy to say that in the twenty some times I backpacked there, the closest I ever came to being hurt was when a bull elk started over a rise without knowing I was there, and decided the best way out was over my head. I didn't have time to say "S&%T!" before it was gone.

Hey, somebody had to post this photo.....

And bears? Y'all can have 'em. I don't want nothing to do with no bears.

Backpacker33 said:

I used to carry a Marlin .45-70 in the Idaho backcountry, to use against a brown bear, if required. I reached a point where I had to significantly lighten my trail load, and one of the first things to go was the Marlin. I asked a number of experienced backcountry campers, and a few rangers, what handgun round would do. The comment about filing down the front sight was made a lot. I settled on a Hamilton Bowen-modified Ruger Redhawk in .500 Linebaugh. The BEST advice I got about how to use it was to shoot early and shoot often. As others in this thread have said, "stopping" a charging bear is tougher than just shooting it. If the bear charges from close in, I think a RedEye rocket would be best.
I'm happy to say that in the twenty some times I backpacked there, the closest I ever came to being hurt was when a bull elk started over a rise without knowing I was there, and decided the best way out was over my head. I didn't have time to say "S&%T!" before it was gone.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the encounters are often over before you know it, that is why having a partner is so important likewise armed.

rondog said:

And bears? Y'all can have 'em. I don't want nothing to do with no bears.

Click to expand...

Actually, this man took down the large grizzly they were releasing with his .38 sp. Not exactly what anyone would call a bear gun. Fortunately, the bear decided to chew his leg first giving him time to tap his brain with a little lead.

Alaska444, you are SO right about having a partner. I backpack solo in the Colorado Rockies and think nothing of it, but in the Idaho Backcountry I'd NEVER go alone!
Excellent advice/comment.

I'd carry an M44 with the bayo extended in ber country.

ALASKA444 - "Actually, this man took down the large grizzly they were releasing with his .38 sp."

Click to expand...

Slight correction. The Montana F&G officer used his S&W Model 19 .357 Magnum.

That story and pictures were published many years ago in Outdoor Life magazine. I subscribed to the magazine then and remember the story quite well. I believe the officer emptied his revolver into the Griz.

In Grizzly country, I prefer a larger caliber, but if a .357 Mag. is all one has... well, you do with as you have.

L.W.

Leanwolf said:

Slight correction. The Montana F&G officer used his S&W Model 19 .357 Magnum.

That story and pictures were published many years ago in Outdoor Life magazine. I subscribed to the magazine then and remember the story quite well. I believe the officer emptied his revolver into the Griz.

In Grizzly country, I prefer a larger caliber, but if a .357 Mag. is all one has... well, you do with as you have.

L.W.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. One of the links I saw a couple of years ago I believe stated it was a .38. The Field and Stream version states .357 as you noted.

I always have my .357 as EDC and I use it as a BUG in pocket carry when I have my .44 magnum. Not much against a griz but it has been used before with successful outcomes as in this case. Luckily he went for his leg first.

My bear defense would be to invite a very slow moving friend to go with me!

Backpacker33 said:

Alaska444, you are SO right about having a partner. I backpack solo in the Colorado Rockies and think nothing of it, but in the Idaho Backcountry I'd NEVER go alone!
Excellent advice/comment.

Click to expand...

Dear Backpacker,

I have spent a great deal of time "solo" in the woods in Maine, PA, Colorado and even in Mass of all places. Here in Idaho, it just happens that most of my time out in the woods has been with my friends.

I have nothing against folks going solo, but a second person in a bear attack situation has been a life saver in many cases. Fortunately, as I pointed out on prior posts, the risk of griz attack in Idaho is rather remote, much less than in Alaska and even some areas in Montana which have had quite a few attacks in the last few years.

One of my friends here in Idaho loves solo camping trips, just not my cup of tea at this point. If that is what you enjoy, more power to you.

God bless,

Leanwolf said:

Slight correction. The Montana F&G officer used his S&W Model 19 .357 Magnum.

That story and pictures were published many years ago in Outdoor Life magazine. I subscribed to the magazine then and remember the story quite well. I believe the officer emptied his revolver into the Griz.

In Grizzly country, I prefer a larger caliber, but if a .357 Mag. is all one has... well, you do with as you have.

L.W.

Click to expand...

Slight correction -- he EMPTIED his .357 pressed into the bear and eventually the attack stopped.

I just hope the guy attacked was the a-hole who when asked if they should bolt the cage to the truck said "nah"!

Alaska444 said:

Dear Backpacker,

I have spent a great deal of time "solo" in the woods in Maine, PA, Colorado and even in Mass of all places. Here in Idaho, it just happens that most of my time out in the woods has been with my friends.

I have nothing against folks going solo, but a second person in a bear attack situation has been a life saver in many cases. Fortunately, as I pointed out on prior posts, the risk of griz attack in Idaho is rather remote, much less than in Alaska and even some areas in Montana which have had quite a few attacks in the last few years.

One of my friends here in Idaho loves solo camping trips, just not my cup of tea at this point. If that is what you enjoy, more power to you.

God bless,

Click to expand...

I've hiked all over the Sawtooth mountains in Idaho (lived in Boise for a year) solo and never had any worries. Actually, I would be more concerned hiking in the remote Oregon Coast where I lived for many years. I had around 4 or 5 run-ins with black bears there and some of the black bears on the coast are as large (even larger) as the grizzlies in Montana. In Montana, esp Glacier NP, there is a lot of grizzlies and that is where many of those attacks happened. I would have generally preferred hiking with some people on the more remote trails. I had a run-in with a female moose and her calf on one of the trails and it wasn't pleasant. Thankfully, I hiked that trail with some guys I met from Minnesota who were use to dealing with moose and they help break me in quick about the situation. There isn't any moose in Oregon/Washington where I grew up. People spend so much time worrying about grizzlies, but forget moose have killed more than their fair share.

I grew up in mountains and love hiking solo, but I would have preferred to hike with others in Montana. However, at my age and with my busy schedule, it is hard to find other people who are like-minded and want to go hike with me, esp going all the way to Montana or Idaho. So, I generally just go at it alone.

bear spray...meh....noise-makers...much better tool to drive away a bear who is way to close than a gunshot. However, bear spray isn't much good at deterring a bear who is actively charging.

you are right that even the biggest magnum handgun isn't going to be enough to stop a charging bear, but a SERIOUS rifle cartridge like a 338 winmag of 375 H&H or 416 Rem Mag can and will break a shoulder stopping a charging bear, allowing for a killing follow-up shot.

I'd not count on even the famous 30-06, let alone a 270 or 308 to do that. Now, hunting, seeing a bear who is strolling along, a proper bullet from a 270 will work fine for hunting, but not for bear defense.

edited for an even better option and clarity

akodo said:

bear spray...much better tool to drive away a bear who is way to close than a gun. However, bear spray isn't much good at deterring a bear who is actively charging.

you are right that even the biggest magnum handgun isn't going to be enough to stop a charging bear, but a SERIOUS rifle cartridge like a 338 winmag of 375 H&H or 416 Rem Mag can and will break a shoulder stopping a charging bear, allowing for a killing follow-up shot.

I'd not count on even the famous 30-06, let alone a 270 or 308 to do that.

Click to expand...

We have had over 10 years of a concerted campaign promoting pepper spray and dissuading folks against using guns for protection against bears. If you look at DLPs in Alaska, the numbers are impressive on how well firearms worked against aggressive brown bears.

If the studies do show firearms in DLPs effective, why the consternation about firearms for bear defense? Simply because they are effective and the number of grizzlies in these studies could be adversely effected according to the so called bear experts. Their promotion of pepper spray is a strategy to avoid human DLP events, not so much as their desire to save human lives. Their focus remains upon reducing DLP shootings of grizzlies.

While pepper spray in some situations is the first choice and it is actually very effective in many bear charge situations, firearms are very effective in many instances as well.

As far as caliber, even grizzlies are not made out of steal and can with proper shot placement drop with rather modest calibers. Many grizzlies have been taken with the 30-30 which by the way in many configurations has more muzzle energy than a .454 Casull that many prefer to the 30-30 for bear defense. And yes, .44 magnum has taken many as well.

Then the 30-06 meets the usual criteria of a bear defense rifle of 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Anything that can penetrate vitals or CNS to a sufficient degree is adequate for bear defense. The rest is simply shot placement. Why disparage calibers that have a proven track record of successful defense against large bears.

the 30-06 meets the usual criteria of a bear defense rifle of 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Anything that can penetrate vitals or CNS to a sufficient degree is adequate for bear defense. The rest is simply shot placement. Why disparage calibers that have a proven track record of successful defense against large bears.

Click to expand...

More than raw energy is needed for the big bears when actively charging. You need a bullet that will hold together. A weatherby 257 has very impressive energy numbers but I'd not trust it to stop a bear. A 30-06 with a 200+ grain bullet would probably be okay if you can't handle a 338. So would a 303 with a 215 grain woodleigh. However you aren't likely to find these factory loaded. Very few places still offer 200 or 220 grain 30-06 loaded cartridges. a 180 30-06 is not something I'd want to use to fend off a charging grizzly, a 150 grain 30-06 less so.

When the bear is charging you won't notice the recoil of a 338 winmag.