Ssssh! Has Black Powder dodged a bullet?

MCgunner said:

Yeah, it's hot, but it's a DRYYYYY heat.

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I can tell you that after living in western Arizona for 35 years, sooner or later you will get tired of using an oven mitt to open your car door. Also, you will NOT get used to it.

Although Arizona's politics have shifted once again to the right in the last decade it still holds an open border with California, the introduction of "Constitutional Carry" in the state is something that I found surprising and I hope it remains. I can say from experience that the political leanings of the state of California have in the past greatly influenced Arizona simply because so many of thier residents have moved to AZ, with a failing economy on the left coast that possibility still exists.

Our daughters still live in AZ and we visit once or twice per year but we definitely try to make sure that it is before the first of June and after the end of September.

I can tell you that after living in western Arizona for 35 years, sooner or later you will get tired of using an oven mitt to open your car door. Also, you will NOT get used to it.

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Yeah, like an IDIOT, I rode my GoldWing out there one AUGUST. Riding down I10 from about Irran, Texas to Tucson was like sitting in front of a Kiln with the door open. I made it by squirting ice water from my cooler on my neck once in a while. I had on a summer jacket, mesh under the arms and across the back for flow. The air was so hot, I left the back zipped up, but the sleeves kept me from burning like over-cooked bacon. I would grab a shot of water now and then by opening my flip front helmet. Do NOT ride out there without a tinted wind screen, either. I've learned THAT over the years.

Best time to ride is spring out there, but I've done THAT before, too, and got into snow coming out of Alpine to Clifton. Ya just can't win sometimes. ROFL!

Yeah, it gets hot here, high 90s usually in summer, but at least we have SHADE. Now, down Corpus to the valley, well, you got 100+ AND 80 percent humidity, or as the weatherman in Corpus likes to put it, "air you can wear". And, there ain't much shade down there, either. Mesquite sux for shade. We did have a big avocado tree in the back yard, though.

(I know this is only drifitng further off-topic, but....)

MCgunner I have no clue how many former Devildogs have decided to stay in Yuma (the DEEP Southwestern corner of AZ) after they ended their terms in the Corps. But I know of at least 4 ret'd Gunny's, a retired Msgt, two former Corporals (one is our newly retired County Sheriff, the other is our newly elected County Sheriff), a retired Cpt (Harrier pilot, lives across the street from me), one former Station CO of MCAS-Yuma with chickens on his collar points, and a guy that retired as SSM at Pendleton.

Probably 20 times that many here in town, these are just the ones I know personally. Three of the four Gunny's have worked or still do work for the former Corporals at the Sheriff's Office; the 4th is in his 60's and "just retired". The MSgt works out at the Army Base north of town, the Scarrier driver is a schoolteacher, the Col. has worked for the Corps as a civilian, for the City, the County, and the State of Arizona and is now just "retired". The SgtMaj is in the Comms/Phone/Internet business (on the same crew as me).

A couple of the Gunny's can send me from Zero to Pi**ed Off in about 5.43 seconds; the other two are very good friends. The rest are guys that I have had the pleasure of meeting and am proud to call them friends.

They're from all over the country, Minnesota, Nebraska, and Missouri (one each of the Gunny's), the Top is from Iowa. The First Shirt is from Fresno CA; and thinks Yuma is a massive improvement. One of the Cpl's is from "back east"; the other from Montana,Wyoming... somewhere up there. Captain is from the West Coast, agrees with the SgtMaj.
Oh, Col Luckie? He's from Texas. Talks about going "back home"; but he likes it here too much.

One more thing to bring this closer to the Thread Topic: The new Sheriff Shoots SASS.

SleazyRider said:

In this latest wave of anti-gun hysteria that has gripped the nation, how is it that the "black powder loophole" (as, I predict, Piers will eventually call it) has gone unnoticed? Even in the Evil Empire State, where I cannot go into Manhattan and buy a 22-ounce soda, I can still call Cabelas and have a six-shooter in my hand by the end of the week without a background check, registration, or a requisite safety class. Low 6-shot capacity? Why not carry 3, 4, or even 5 six-shooters on my person just like Jesse did? Low power? A .44 caliber 1858 Remington pointing in my direction would certainly get my attention. I don't get it.
I'm not complaining, mind you, just ruminating on the arbitrary nature of the proposed legislation; and wondering if it will generate a new interest in Black Powder shooting and collecting. I hope not, because it will eventually spell the end of this freedom as well.

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I know this thread has drifted waaaaaaay afield... So back to the OP.

I think that the status of BP arms is interesting. They can be purchased legally (in most places?) even by felons, and yet they are misused in only the rarest of circumstances. Criminals don't bother to acquire guns legally even when they have a viable option... Instead, they violate laws on possession of modern arms and then go on to break other laws. Who'd have thunk it, right?

Antique ignition platforms may well be the last to go, but the only sure way to protect the ownership of them is to protect ownership of all others. There is no safety in the soot; we have to protect modern arms or risk losing the old ones as well.

Be active, be vocal, and hold the line.

Lunie said:

They can be purchased legally (in most places?) even by felons.

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I don't believe this is actually true. Black powder weapons are not federally regulated by the NFA, or the GCA, or subsequent acts. So there is no legal requirement for the vendor to check when selling them.

But that doesn't mean it's legal for a convicted felon to buy them. There's a subtle, but real, difference between those two. The felony laws of the state come in to play. There are other restrictions besides the ones you're looking at.

Much like its legal for you to buy a can of wasp spray, but technically it's illegal for you to use it as a defensive weapon, except as a weapon against wasps. The can says its a violation of federal law to use it in a manner other than in its intended purposes or some such wording. There's some specific mumbo jumbo.

The reason a professional drug store bandit doesn't want a Colt 1851 Sheriff's model is because a stolen Glock is probably the same price! (He just has a 5 day waiting period after he gets out of the big house, then he and the fence can go to the LGS with the stolen gun and fake IDs for the NCIS check, right? Right? Am I missing something?)

Lunie, good post.

Last weekend we had some family friends over for a BBQ. My dad's friend's daughter (she is 6) knows that the 2nd Amendment is a right, and she even knows what "Shall not be infringed" meant. That 6 year old girl knows more about the American constitution than half of congress!

SleazyRider said:

Well, here in the Empire State (so aptly named), anybody can mail-order a black powder gun; in fact, you may legally hang it on the wall or over the fireplace without any further ado.

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While it's true that anyone can mail-order the piece without further ado - and the vendor isn't obliged to check up on anything, I suspect that if you ask someone who works for the state probation office they'll tell you that their charges are forbidden from doing so.

Much the same as someone who has had their driver's license suspended for 30 days can stick the keys in the car and go buy gasoline and drive over the river and through the woods to Grandmother's house, and it isn't the station attendant's job to validate that he's selling gasoline to someone for a legal road trip, it isn't Cabela's job to validate they're customer isn't restricted.

In this case it is the customer, or the felon, that is regulated, not the item.

Center-fire guns are regulated. And convicted felons are regulated. But it's different sets of regulations.

To take the example a bit farther, is every landlord in the state obliged to check the registered sex offender records before letting an apartment near an elementary school, or are the people who are restricted just supposed to know that they can be picked up if they break the terms of their release, and behave accordingly?

michael,

I am not a lawyer or an expert. I can't speak for all states. I believe that felons can legally possess arms classified as having antique style ignition systems in my state. I also believe this is true in many, if not most, other states. Yours, and others, may vary.

Lunie said:

I am not a lawyer or an expert. I can't speak for all states. I believe that felons can legally possess arms classified as having antique style ignition systems in my state. I also believe this is true in many, if not most, other states. Yours, and others, may vary.

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I'm not a lawyer either. Nor am I an LEO. My uncle was a Deputy Sheriff all his life, and his son, my first cousin is also. And two of my close friends are probation officers.

I have asked specifically about the black powder weapons, and the answer I've gotten is that that they are prohibited from possessing them. Period.

As I said, the "item" isn't regulated the way a center fire cartridge weapon is regulated, but the person is regulated. And you can bet that if my buddy the probation officer finds you with a BP pistol in violation of your probation, then you're going back to the slammer right then. Same with a long knife.

I cannot answer what might happen if you keep your nose clean until your probation is up. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer either, and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night. Perhaps then you can have one, or maybe you can't. I don't know, and I don't really want to have to find out, thank you very much. I like my guns just like they are.

Your state may be different.

michaelbsc said:

I'm not a lawyer either. Nor am I an LEO. My uncle was a Deputy Sheriff all his life, and his son, my first cousin is also. And two of my close friends are probation officers.

I have asked specifically about the black powder weapons, and the answer I've gotten is that that they are prohibited from possessing them. Period.

As I said, the "item" isn't regulated the way a center fire cartridge weapon is regulated, but the person is regulated. And you can bet that if my buddy the probation officer finds you with a BP pistol in violation of your probation, then you're going back to the slammer right then. Same with a long knife.

I cannot answer what might happen if you keep your nose clean until your probation is up. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer either, and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night. Perhaps then you can have one, or maybe you can't. I don't know, and I don't really want to have to find out, thank you very much. I like my guns just like they are.

Your state may be different.

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I'm not certain who you asked, but be mindful that there are few people who are "qualified" to give legal advice; those people are lawyers. Anyone else, from LEO's, Legislators, or what have you, often give no better than opinions that you might acquire by asking strangers on the street. (Even then, what the law "is" seems to be ever debatable. Statutes may say one thing, prosecutors another, and judges may be on another page entirely.)

My point was that in my state, as well as others, "antique" style arms can be legally purchased and possessed by felons (according to my opinion, research, and understanding, and I am not a lawyer). It may not be where you are, but it is in some places. And somehow, it seems to cause no noticeable ill effects. They seem to prefer possessing more modern (cartridge) arms in violation of the law, and using those to commit other crimes. If that isn't noteworthy, I'm not sure what is.

The people I've asked are the people who would be making the arrest, but not the prosecution. The apparent incongruence of the rules seemed odd to me, so I just asked the question standing around the grill cooking burgers. After all, I've got these cousin LEOs around all the time.

I'll agree that local laws can and do vary widely. So the answers I got have no bearing to anyone else's location. And if criminals are sneaking on THR looking for ways to get a stealth gun I hope I offer them no useful advice.

It's true that criminals would prefer a stolen Glock to a BP revolver any day of the week. It's a way more useful tool. So, since they're breaking the law anyway, just jack it on up to the real deal.

I bought 2# of black powder today, in a small shop up here in the "North Woods". I was a new customer and was not asked even name or residency, just like the old days except the $20 price.