Have the anti-gunners already won?

Derek summed it up well in his post, early on.

It *IS* bleak out there. Just as it happened last time, the media is 100% biased and virtually everyone who is getting substantial camera time, is in favor of gun control. Gun rights activists are being labeled as crazy lunatics, who care more for their evil black plastic and metal rifle, than for the welfare of the innocent children. (Who deserve a vote. A simple vote.)

Those who insist that our fundamental right is based on the ability to resist a tyrannical government are being ostracized and ridiculed. "What will you do when the Government knocks on your door with an Apache gunship?" (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence activist asked me that during a debate, I answered "Apache pilots who fire on US citizens have to sleep somewhere, don't they?")

The States' Rights issue is front and center. We're seeing states polarized by this, and other issues. That they were ALREADY polarized by serious, and compounding Federal abuses of power don't make this any easier.

What the Government is starting to realize is that while most United States Citizen will absorb heavy taxes, body scanners when traveling, and restrictive, oppressive laws with depressed resign, a small (but growing) percentage of individuals have for quite some time drawn their "line in the sand" with firearms.

Because those people realize that as bad as it is, it could easily be 1000x worse if our domestic situation takes a sudden turn for the worse. When I was young, my great grandmother (who was a young woman through the great depression) talked to me about life when she was young - she was born in 1912. Until Alzheimer's started stealing her from us, she wasted NOTHING. I mean, every consumable resource that could possibly be reused, was.

What she went through, in the 30's, shaped the entire rest of her life. Even when the decades of wasteful abandon and excess started in full swing (80's-present), she never wasted anything or failed to save a penny.

Watching my children grow up in this world, having to constantly work to raise them with a set of values that parallels my own, instead of what is broadcast on the television, is exceptionally difficult.

I do NOT like the way the world is heading.

I do NOT like that individual freedom and freewill is being subjugated by the central authority.

And make no mistake, my right to free speech, along with my other natural rights, are protected by my right to bear arms - now, until the day I'm pushing up daisies.

There's a lot at stake if we lose this fight. An awful lot.

I don't see serious legislation passing in this congress. Still, I think we need to plan for the long fight. I support the NRA because their presence in D.C. has provided a helpful balance to the frenzy created by the liberal media and politicians, who often know nothing about firearms or have never used one to protect themselves.

Each year there are thousands of people who protect their lives and property with firearms. According to criminologist Gary Kleck, the number is in the millions. Some researchers, notably those at Harvard, have challenged his numbers. Still, the bottom line is that even if they are cut by half, that represents a lot more lives saved than those taken. As you know, the NRA publishes items in every issue of the American Rifleman and has done so for years.

Isn't it odd that we live in a time when texting while driving can kill over 5,000 people a year, and raise little or no attention in Congress, or even concern among parents. Drinking and driving claims another 10,000 or so. But you won't hear any talk about prohibition in Congress (that didn't work the first time). The net effect of these actions are worse than that of all the killings committed with "assault weapons." Yet it'll take a long, persistent effort to get people to understand that the prevention of needless death requires a greater focus on people and not things.

Cesiumsponge said:

Don't forget which generation came up with the idea of Social Security. Like the thorough polling above cites, the youngest generation is overwhelmingly the most supportive of private ownership of assault weapons. These kids today don't have large swaths of Fudd sportsmen and Fudd hunters. We grew up with evil black rifles in movies, games, media, and in our gun safes.

It's easy to blame "kids these days" simply because everyone gets nostalgia and thinks theirs is the best generation, best movies, best music, best etc. Then to sit here and blame the kids instead of the parents who are responsible for raising them into decent adults.

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THANK YOU! This is a serious fight, all hands on deck. Dividing 2a supporters by 'this' and 'that' generation is crap. Trust me, there's plenty of blame to go around.


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she wasted NOTHING. I mean, every consumable resource that could possibly be reused, was.

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"Use it up!
Wear it out!
Make it do,
Or do without!"

Unfortunately, Trent, the way things are going, your children may soon have the opportunity to learn those same values.

Cesiumsponge said:

Don't forget which generation came up with the idea of Social Security. Like the thorough polling above cites, the youngest generation is overwhelmingly the most supportive of private ownership of assault weapons. These kids today don't have large swaths of Fudd sportsmen and Fudd hunters. We grew up with evil black rifles in movies, games, media, and in our gun safes.

It's easy to blame "kids these days" simply because everyone gets nostalgia and thinks theirs is the best generation, best movies, best music, best etc. Then to sit here and blame the kids instead of the parents who are responsible for raising them into decent adults.

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Dear Cesium,

Not blaming anyone, just stating that the generations before had much different ethics than today including a deep understanding and appreciation for freedom. I don't see that today in the young kids coming down the pike today. On the other hand, how could they.

This has been a long battle going on for more than a hundred years. If you want to date it, go to Teddy Roosevelt who started the concept of welfare with the relief for widows and orphans just about exactly 100 years ago.

The idea that the government is our provider instead of God is a well tread idea now well indoctrinated in this latest generation more so than before. If we look at the demographics of who this latest generation supports, it is overwhelmingly Democratic.

Hopefully they will get smarter, but I am not so hopeful given the horrific propaganda machine working against that. The last election demonstrated dramatically the demographic shifts in this nation that has traditionally been a center right nation. We can no longer make that statement.

If you want to date it, go to Teddy Roosevelt who started the concept of welfare with the relief for widows and orphans just about exactly 100 years ago.

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It's been around for a bit longer. See my signature for details - Thomas Paine had some interesting ideas in The Rights of Man.

AnthonySmithXR said:

THANK YOU! This is a serious fight, all hands on deck. Dividing 2a supporters by 'this' and 'that' generation is crap. Trust me, there's plenty of blame to go around.


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Once again my friend, not blaming anyone, just noting that the freedom lovers of my father's generation understood greatly the sacrifices required to maintain freedom and willingly fought against the tyranny of Nazism and the Japanese in the East.

I seriously lack any finding of that same love of freedom and the willingness to sacrifice in the kids coming up today. How could they, who is teaching them those precepts any longer?

My point is that it will only take one generation of folks who don't understand the power of freedom and the beauty of freedom. I suspect that we are just about at that point today or very close to it. Not blaming anyone, just observing cultural trends in our society. Once again, the last election demonstrated this concept concretely. We are no longer a center right nation. We are now a nation looking to the government for our provisions and safety and solutions to all of our problems.

There was a reason that my father's generation was called among other things a can do generation. Looking upon my father's life and his talents, he really was a can do person from a very young age. I didn't gather as much "can do'ness" as my own dad. I see NONE in my kids and grandkids who have grown up twiddling gadgets instead of fixing things and exploring. Yes, I will stick to my original statement, I don't see those coming behind us revering the constitution or conservative principles. Instead, they appear to embrace the welfare mentality in their work ethic. Understandably a generalization, but have you worked with any of these young kids lately.

I took my 15 yo grandson swimming at our clubhouse pool last summer with one of his friends. They swam for about 5-10 minutes then sat in the hot tub for about an hour. Sorry, but we used to play hard and work hard. Not trying to divide, but does anyone see the old fashioned work ethic in this youngest generation? Shucks, I sure don't. They don't even play hard.

Until the various (name your freedom) groups come together rather than groping for each others' throats, we'll be kept separate and scrabbling to offer up people who do things "we don't like" to the lions in the hope that we'll be eaten last.
Until we all stand up for ALL our rights, we'll all hang separately.

Well, I could tell you about the thousands of retirees down here in Florida I run into every day/week/year who think that the government owes them a pay check for the last 30 years of their lives along with healthcare and everything else, while they do absolutely nothing to contribute to society despite the fact that they've long received far more than they ever put in. While complaining about 'this generation' they vote down every measure that may help kids in this area, never lift a finger to help schools, families or anyone other than themselves, and pat themselves on the bal every chance they get. And they are also the reason Florida went to Obama. But that doesn't mean 'that generation' is killing America. As I said, plenty of blame to go around. Entitlements are an equal opportunity blunder. My generation isn't any more guilty of it than any other currently living. It's an American disease, not a generational one.


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I relate more to people of my generation because we share common values and life as it used to be. I cannot say that younger generations are less dedicated to protecting our freedoms although their lifestyle is quite different from mine when growing up.

When 9/11 occurred, the Country became united against the terrorists. Today we are a polarized nation deeply fractured by ideology. We are at war with ourselves. Those that value our Constitutional rights must fight to keep them for the opposition is stomping them into oblivion.

I still retain great faith in our Nation. The pendulum may swing out of kilter but through the wisdom of founding fathers, it has managed to correct itself over time. We will win some and lose some, but no law is forever permanent.

Alaska444 said:

Once again my friend, not blaming anyone, just noting that the freedom lovers of my father's generation understood greatly the sacrifices required to maintain freedom and willingly fought against the tyranny of Nazism and the Japanese in the East.

I seriously lack any finding of that same love of freedom and the willingness to sacrifice in the kids coming up today. How could they, who is teaching them those precepts any longer?

My point is that it will only take one generation of folks who don't understand the power of freedom and the beauty of freedom. I suspect that we are just about at that point today or very close to it. Not blaming anyone, just observing cultural trends in our society. Once again, the last election demonstrated this concept concretely. We are no longer a center right nation. We are now a nation looking to the government for our provisions and safety and solutions to all of our problems.

There was a reason that my father's generation was called among other things a can do generation. Looking upon my father's life and his talents, he really was a can do person from a very young age. I didn't gather as much "can do'ness" as my own dad. I see NONE in my kids and grandkids who have grown up twiddling gadgets instead of fixing things and exploring. Yes, I will stick to my original statement, I don't see those coming behind us revering the constitution or conservative principles. Instead, they appear to embrace the welfare mentality in their work ethic. Understandably a generalization, but have you worked with any of these young kids lately.

I took my 15 yo grandson swimming at our clubhouse pool last summer with one of his friends. They swam for about 5-10 minutes then sat in the hot tub for about an hour. Sorry, but we used to play hard and work hard. Not trying to divide, but does anyone see the old fashioned work ethic in this youngest generation? Shucks, I sure don't. They don't even play hard.

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Stop giving up on the next generation. Stop throwing them under the bus. Stop lamenting their failures before they happen. Just stop.

The only thing you're accomplishing by going on this diatribe about how awful people my age are is alienating young people who actually want to protect freedom.

And please stop viewing previous generations as the penultimate in freedom loving citizens. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the kids born in the 90s that allowed the gun control acts of 1934 and 1968 to go through.

And what generation created the ACLU? Plenty of blame to go around. We've got to have unity for the cause or it IS lost. Don't say you're not blaming anyone after saying 'after my generation is dead it's al going to heck'.


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For the thousandth time, NO.

I shall not rant about the current occupant of the White House. We have seen threats of control for decades. With each threat, the price of guns has risen for a while, ammunition components have sold out and people look for ways to hide their guns. People should have started buying these things the when a Democrat wins the election and sell "high" while the storm passes. It is a political football and would not be surprised at insider trading by those "exempt" of SEC regulations.

In other countries, a location for the weapon must be secured in the house of the owner to control access. Most .22 weapons are surpressed, so as to not annoy the neighbors. We can't get healthcare right, nor can we get gun control right. Why? POLI-TICs as Pogo used to say. Perhaps it will succeed, if the president gets a forth term.

But what do I know? I am not inside the loop with all the bureaucrats, lobbyists and other kidders, to paraphrase Will Rogers.

CarolinaChuck said:

Michael,

I get the gist of what you are saying and can only agree. I would, however, suggest Mark Levin's Ameritopia, as picking up the "Philosophers" and reading them is not like reading a Louis Lamor book. I read his book and came away with a sense that he about summed up my first two years of college.

Chuck

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I haven't read this book by Levin. Been working too many hours the past two years. But Men in Black was excellent, and a good synopsis of judicial activism.

I'll grant that reading original source is daunting. And Levin, at least on the radio, is a good interpreter.

I just looked at the liner notes for Ameritopia, and it's obviously dealing with exactly the topic I brought up. And probably far more digestible than 3-4 centuries old works in archaic dialect.

So, yeah, go for it. And kick the royalty into Levin's pocket. But I would try to find it in a real book store before supporting Amazon, who hates us.

And one admonition I would make in the long run would be to try to get back to Hobbes's Leviathan independent of Levin. While Levin will give a fair critique no doubt, his analysis will be about the problems with it. You need to hear the pro arguments from Hobbes supporters and still see the problems. When it's cast in favorable light it's more difficult to see the problems, and that's what we must learn to do.

If nothing else get the SparkNotes and read them after reading Levin. They're like CliffNotes for nonfiction. Cost a few bucks each and aimed at a modern student.

As I quoted, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

This struggle is about far more than just guns. It's about the social contract of how America functions as a society. It's about fundamentally changing America.

I'm surprised this thread made it four pages without a moderator closing it on the grounds of "you're all wearing tinfoil hats and being paranoid."

If it gets bad, I know a lot of people would turn in their guns. You have to make the choice, live free or die hard. (I watched that movie on FX tonight)

Baron_Null said:

Stop giving up on the next generation. Stop throwing them under the bus. Stop lamenting their failures before they happen. Just stop.

The only thing you're accomplishing by going on this diatribe about how awful people my age are is alienating young people who actually want to protect freedom.

And please stop viewing previous generations as the penultimate in freedom loving citizens. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the kids born in the 90s that allowed the gun control acts of 1934 and 1968 to go through.

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Not trying to offend anyone, just noting that there is a much different work ethic and sense of freedom than what I grew up with in the 50's and 60's. If you don't like my opinion on this, here are some professional articles. In any case, our society is heading into a deep slumber of entitlement. If that is not intuitively apparent, then perhaps we should discuss this.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/lynscircle/2009/07/07/the-new-welfare-generation/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/keller-the-entitled-generation.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2007/09/30/the_new_me_generation/

But don’t take his word for it. Many students openly admit their goal is to succeed with the least amount of effort. And many universities make this easy for them. It isn’t hard to find courses where you can get good marks even if you don’t show up. Professors say it’s not uncommon for 30 per cent or 40 per cent of their students to skip any given class. And students strenuously object if they don’t get the marks they feel entitled to. “They got 80 per cent in high school and, when they get 62 per cent, they’re mad,” says Prof. Coates. “They bring assignments in late and think we’ll mark them without penalty.”

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comm...ide-the-entitlement-generation/article627319/

Baron_Null said:

Stop giving up on the next generation. Stop throwing them under the bus. Stop lamenting their failures before they happen. Just stop.

[...]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't the kids born in the 90s that allowed the gun control acts of 1934 and 1968 to go through.

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My hat is off to you young man.

Thank you.

Trent said:

We're seeing states polarized by this, and other issues. That they were ALREADY polarized by serious, and compounding Federal abuses of power don't make this any easier.

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Like it or not, there's a real limit to their abuses. The regions that perceive the central government as totally out of control have one overriding resource.


We grow the food.

Can you pick up another AK74 made today, legally? Can you pick up another 100% legal AK74 made decades ago for a price affordable to a general consumer?

That's your answer. Just because "I got mine" doesn't mean you won anything. You just got with the program and complied to the government's NFA restrictions early on or you have disposable income.

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By saying they've won means my rifle of choice is illegal. I don't see how they've won. The recent AWB is dead and now they are trying to sell a national registry. That looks more like we are still fighting vs. they've won.

By the way, my AK74 isn't select fire. I bought it for $540 early last year. If you know of any select fire pre '86 NFA registered AK74s, that would be absolutely amazing.


I'm tired of seeing this defeatist attitude. It's over when it's over and boy is it far from being over. No side has one yet but we actually have the upper hand. Look at gun ownership statistics and think about how the recent AWB attempt failed when the first one passed.

We have a lot of splintering going on. I am of a progressive mindset, except when it comes to the second amendment. I have tried to get active in local grass roots organizations. Once they find out that I am not a fox news watching republican they made it clear I was not wanted. I am an ardent supporter of the second amendment. I don't care about your religious or political views. If we want to protect the second amendment we have to let everyone who cares participate. One local gun shop that I spent a lot of money in drove me off because of my view on the Trayvon Martin shooting. They think you should shoot people over property. They think you should take the law in your own hands. I think they have no business owning a gun, much less a gun shop.

Alaska444 said:

Not trying to offend anyone, just noting that there is a much different work ethic and sense of freedom than what I grew up with in the 50's and 60's. If you don't like my opinion on this, here are some professional articles. In any case, our society is heading into a deep slumber of entitlement. If that is not intuitively apparent, then perhaps we should discuss this.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/lynscircle/2009/07/07/the-new-welfare-generation/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/keller-the-entitled-generation.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2007/09/30/the_new_me_generation/



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comm...ide-the-entitlement-generation/article627319/

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I honestly don't care if you mean to be offending or not. And it really doesn't matter that I am offended. I don't have a right to not be offended. My feelings have no bearing on the situation at hand.

I'm not saying that there not a lot of people out there that prefer the easy way to the right way.

What I am saying is that ranting on about how awful this generation is being isn't going to help our cause any. It's not encouraging anyone to go out and act. All it's doing is prematurely admitting defeat and blaming it all on the failures of a group that you aren't a part of.

So instead of focusing all of this energy on talking about how my generation is going to ruin everything spend that energy writing your legislators and encourage others to do the same, debate with anti-gunners, teach others about the real facts behind gun control, try to encourage other pro-2A people to do the same, ect. ect.

I'm not saying you don't already do all of this, but you're still spending precious debating energy on trying to alienate other people with the same views that you have.

My point is, if you really think everything is lost because of my generations lack of fight, prove how much better yours is.

Got to keep fighting from the county commish on up - to the WH.

Perhaps all politics is local.

In those states where the goal is to make honest citizens criminals, all it will take is for ONE person to stand up.

Then watch what happens.

Vector said:

I think the big question is, who will voluntarily turn in guns/mags/ammo the state or federal government demands.
If a decent amount of people are sheep, then yes the battle will be lost before it ever gets to the SCOTUS. Then again, if we keep electing people like Obama, the SCOTUS will be full of people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg who has no respect for the Constitution. The current balance of 5-4 majority could easily turn the other way or worse.
So every single person who voted for Obama will have played a role is destroying the 2nd Amendment, and eventually the rest of the Constitution.

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OK , don't know how others feel but your point that everone who voted for Obama contributed to this. Wouldn't that also include those that voted for his enablers in Congress and even at the state and local level ?
I've been told that politics can't be discussed here but ... isn't that hpw we got this problem where politicians are trying to ban guns ?
No guns... nothing to discuss.
So , two local gun stores made it a policy not to sell anything on the "ban lists" to anyone who can't prove they are not registered with BHO's party.
No voter's registration stamped R or I or anything other than D ..... no guns, magazines or ammo.
I agree.
You ?

Deer_Freak said:

We have a lot of splintering going on. I am of a progressive mindset, except when it comes to the second amendment. I have tried to get active in local grass roots organizations. Once they find out that I am not a fox news watching republican they made it clear I was not wanted. I am an ardent supporter of the second amendment. I don't care about your religious or political views. If we want to protect the second amendment we have to let everyone who cares participate. One local gun shop that I spent a lot of money in drove me off because of my view on the Trayvon Martin shooting. They think you should shoot people over property. They think you should take the law in your own hands. I think they have no business owning a gun, much less a gun shop.

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Sorry, but if you wish to vote "progressive" then how is it that you propose to protect the 2A? I certainly don't uphold everything that the GOP does, but if you are going to vote for "progressive" candidates, how is it that you can separate that from their anti-gun stance?

I will continue to support the mindset that Dr. Benjamin Carson noted last week when he "stood up" to Obama in person. Until America returns to the ideals he promoted in his talk, then I don't care who you vote for, America is toast and so is the 2A eventually. We "fought off" the folks for years on socialized medicine, now that is a lost battle as well.

http://uneditedpolitics.com/dr-benjamin-carson-speech-at-the-national-prayer-breakfast-2713/

If you wish to vote progressive, that is certainly your right, but don't be surprised when you progressive candidates strip you of your second amendment.