So I blew up a 1911 (Kaboom)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I disagree with you 100%.

When you taper crimp, you're pushing the casing IN to the projectile. That brass has to go somewhere.

45ACP brass is .010 - .013" in thickness depending on brand. When that brass is pushed in to the projectile, the sharp edge of the case mouth forms a corresponding sharp edge in the bullet.

This "ledge" that forms is slight, but it IS there. Moreover, it's provides unidirectional resistance against setback. The bullet can LEAVE the casing because the mass behind the crimp is tapered, and easily pushes the brass out of the way. Conversely, the bullet cannot further ENTER the casing without working much harder, because you've formed a ridge with two sharp edges that mate together.

You can push that sharp edge of the case mouth in .005" to .007" (about half the thickness of the case wall) across the entire diameter of the bullet and still have positive headspacing due to the taper. The bullet can leave with virtually no additional resistance, but it cannot further ENTER the casing without pushing past that ridge.

Because the case wall is (generally) straight, there's a lot of resistance to skip past that ridge formed by the taper crimp.

If you are NOT taper crimping your ammo, regardless of the projectile, or feed angle of the firearm, sooner or later, you're going to run across a piece of overworked, bad, or thin brass and get setback. The steeper the feed angle, the more likely this is to happen. (Case point; Springfield XD. With that severe feed angle it has, I've measured factory Winchester white box before & after chambering and found setback of as much as .007").

And when that happens, if you are unlucky, your gun will look much like the OP's. You shorten the case depth .100 or .200" and you are DRAMATICALLY increasing the pressure of the cartridge if you're loading anywhere near max. How much that pressure ramps up depends on depth and powder type.

When I was working up the loads to those SWC's above, if I did NOT crimp, the Springfield XD would force the bullet deep in to the casing; as much as .250". It would chamber - usually, because as the bullet was pushed back the rear of the casing was being lifted by the slide, eventually shallowing the feed angle enough for the round to enter the chamber.

That's a TON of set back. When I crimped that same load, it would simply stovepipe and stop the chambering of the round in it's tracks, because the bullet couldn't get pushed back in to the casing even with the mass of the slide hammering at it. No setback. No chambering.

WITHOUT the crimp, that Springfield XD WOULD chamber the round, and if I were working with live ammo instead of dummy rounds, and a load anywhere NEAR max, that chamber would be blown to pieces.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate the issue further - you are an adult and can choose what you want to do. It's your hands, and eyes, and face; not mine. You might be lucky and never have a problem.

I'd prefer to have a little ridge form that prevents the bullet from coming back in. The brass itself only offers resistance from sprung tension. The ridge created by taper crimping creates a positive hardpoint of resistance that a bullet has to overcome.

I've PROVEN this already in my own trials. You're welcome to do the same and draw your own conclusions.
Click to expand...
Im not sure what you have "proven" in your tests. If you are saying that brass springback cant occur from overcrimping a round, causing loss of neck tension you are wrong. 100% wrong. Anyone thats reloaded for any amount of time knows this, its readily available information. The fact that you need to overcrimp simply points out that you are either doing something wrong in your reloading or that you have a faulty die.

Those are facts. Painful as you may find them, they are true. Your overcrimping to compensate for lack of neck tension simply porves that overcrimping the round held the bullet in place. Thats not the purpose of any type of taper crimp on an autoloader round.

You said yourself that the metal of the case gets pushed into the bullet, displacing material. When a round headspaces off the case mouth this is not the proper method of assembling the round. Thats a fact.
 
sooner or later, you're going to run across a piece of overworked, bad, or thin brass...
Click to expand...
I agree.
...and get setback
Click to expand...
Nope. I toss this brass.

There's a heck of a lot reloaders that don't crimp 223 ammo for autoloaders. Lots o folks don't tapercrimp semiauto pistol ammo. You obviously don't need to do it to prevent setback. And there are other reasons to do it.

You can push that sharp edge of the case mouth in .005" to .007" (about half the thickness of the case wall) across the entire diameter of the bullet and still have positive headspacing due to the taper. The bullet can leave with virtually no additional resistance, but it cannot further ENTER the casing without pushing past that ridge.
Click to expand...
I don't doubt your logic. But OTOH, of all the factory ammo I've examined, it's quite rare IMO to see a semiauto pistol round tapercrimped this much, one that has any visible degree of what you're describing. Most of the time, there's no visible crimp, at all.

I would crimp my jacketed pistol ammo just like you describe... if someone would trim all my pistol brass for me.
 
Last edited:
GLOOB said:
I agree.

Nope. I toss this brass.

There's a heck of a lot reloaders that don't crimp 223 ammo for autoloaders. Lots o folks don't tapercrimp semiauto pistol ammo. You obviously don't need to do it to prevent setback. And there are other reasons to do it.


I don't doubt your logic. But OTOH, of all the factory ammo I've examined, it's quite rare IMO to see a round tapercrimped this much, one that has any visible degree of what you're describing.
Click to expand...

As mentioned, I had to go much more than I had in the past with this particular bullet due to the geometry and physics involved when it's chambered.

On a properly loaded (OAL) FMJ or JHP, you'll NEVER need that much crimp, because the round is loaded at a shallower angle and you have a smooth, curved surface to aid chambering.

HOWEVER - if you load a round too SHORT (as the OP did), then the casual safety net you enjoy without a crimp gets tossed out the window.

That short OAL cartridge causes the bullet to impact the top of the chamber, setting the bullet back severely. As the bullet is set back the slide continues to move forward. Because the cartridge is shortened, the back of the case slides up the face, and once it reaches a shallow enough angle, it will chamber. Neck /wall tension is *NOT* enough to prevent that from happening. Only a hard crimp would protect you.

Given

A] that a firm crimp - done properly - will not affect headspacing

and

B] that a firm crimp which slightly deforms the bullet will not affect accuracy, whatsoever, in a pistol round

Why NOT put a crimp on?

It's an added level of safety.

(We're off topic here, but on 223 I load cannelure bullets with a roll crimp for casual plinking ammo. If I load something like V-MAX which has a smooth bearing surface, it's DEFINITELY possible to get setback. I've measured this on brass with up to .005 neck tension. On precision rounds - 69/77/80 gr, I neck turn and use collet dies to get precisely .002 neck tension, and don't crimp to avoid deforming the bullet, but have to single load them.)
 
Why NOT put a crimp on?
Click to expand...
Lots of reasons. Sometimes you can't effectively taper crimp while seating, and on a SS press that means an extra step. Also, it may cause intermittent grief, unless you trim all your brass to the same length.

If I load something like V-MAX which has a smooth bearing surface, it's DEFINITELY possible to get setback.
Click to expand...
It's always possible to get setback if you don't use a crimp. It's for you to determine when you need it, and when you don't, for which firearms and which bullets/brass.
 
I am glad you were not hurt and it is just amazing that the grips did not blow out or that you did not get metal particles in the eyes.

If you need to disrupt the progressive cycle and have any concerns, clear the shellplate and start over at station #1. I think this is where many reloaders get in trouble and end up with double charges
Click to expand...
This is good advice.

I must have loaded a over a hundred thousand rounds, maybe a couple hundred thousand rounds, on my Dillion 550. I get in a rhythm of picking up bullet, case, turning shellholder and if I get out of rhythm I stop and clear the shell plate.

Keeping my fingers crossed but no Kaboom’s to date.

I believe I am more likely to double charge when using a loading block. I still have my Little Dandy powder measure, it was easy to day dream and forget which case I charged.
 
I have a progressive and I have always been leery of loading very small pistol loads with it. So what I do is one last quality check where I weigh every round on an electronic scale. It will pick up a squib or double in a heart beat. I have had no doubles but I have caught one where I missed getting powder in it.
 
Those stubby JSWCs like factory match usually get a very wide and deep barrel ramp that is ok with light midrange loads. I bet getting them to run with bowling pin loads in a regular ramp was a challenge.

The trend has been from those and similar cast bullets like HG 130 and Lyman 452460 to the long nosed HG 68. A lot of target shooters have moved on to accurate ogival JHPs from Nosler and Zero.

The plated SWCs from Rainier look like but do not feed like HG 68s.

The XD .45 is reportedly incompatible with SWCs in general.
The XDM was supposedly revised to accept them.

My first P220 was also. I haven't asked the second to try.
 
Jim Watson said:
Those stubby JSWCs like factory match usually get a very wide and deep barrel ramp that is ok with light midrange loads. I bet getting them to run with bowling pin loads in a regular ramp was a challenge.
Click to expand...

I got those Remington Match JSWC .452's to run right up to max load, in everything except the XD, where they wouldn't run at all. I had to load up well over 100 dummy rounds (5 per .001) and record, meticulously, which firearms fed 100%, occasionally fed, or didn't feed at all. My hands were raw by the time I was done, from jacking slides. :)

I found a remarkably SMALL zone (.002 or .003 if I recall) that would feed in all of my 45's except the XD. (Tested OK in Glock 21, Taurus PT145, S&W M&P, Taurus 24/7, Springfield 1911 GI, H&K USP45 Tactical)

It was a ridiculously time consuming endeavor.

Jim Watson said:
The trend has been from those and similar cast bullets like HG 130 and Lyman 452460 to the long nosed HG 68. A lot of target shooters have moved on to accurate ogival JHPs from Nosler and Zero.

The plated SWCs from Rainier look like but do not feed like HG 68s.

The XD .45 is reportedly incompatible with SWCs in general.
The XDM was supposedly revised to accept them.
Click to expand...

I guarantee the original XD is incompatible with those match JSWC's, I tried every combination of OAL (that I could crimp, up to the point of 100% failure in all the 45's) in .001 increments; they wouldn't work, period.

I don't have an XDM so can't try in it.

Regarding setback of FMJ rounds, I just completed testing 40 trials of Ranier plated 230 gr FMJ (20 in a 1911 and XD, each, with uncrimped brass). Brass was Winchester Match, once fired (most consistent I have on hand). Seating depth was set to 1.270" (+/- .002, since I measured each round before starting and tracked them all individually through the course of the test, initial seating depth errors were eliminated.)

Here's my findings:

Out of 20 rounds chambered in the 1911, setback was measured from 0.000" to 0.013", with an average of 0.003421". The rounds were chambered by pulling the slide completely to the rear and releasing.

Out of 10 rounds chambered in the XD, with manual slide release (full to rear and release), min setback was 0.000" with max setback of 0.005", and an average of 0.0019".

Out of 10 rounds chambered in the XD, released from the slide lock, setback was measured from a minimum of 0.001", a maximum of 0.005", and an average of 0.003".

Over the 20 rounds in the XD chambered both ways, minimum setback was 0.000", maximum 0.005", average 0.00245"

Over the 40 rounds, average setback was 0.00285"

Clearly, with this bullet /brass combination and these two particular firearms, setback in the brass is minimal. (Full metal jacket chambers smoothly)

For those who might carry uncrimped reloads and chamber /unchamber the top round frequently, here's the OVERALL figures, tracked over 10 rounds chambered 4 times each:


Minimum setback: 0.004"
Maximum setback: 0.028"
Average setback: 0.01140"

The lesson here, is to rotate your top carry round, if you are not crimping (and just straightening the case back out), because it WILL get set back over repeated chamberings.

The worst setback I found was 0.013" in the 1911. Overall, setback in the Springfield 1911 was about 50% worse than the setback I saw in the Springfield XD.

Clearly the JSWC ordeal I went through, where I found it required heavier crimping, does NOT apply to your typical FMJ or JHP loads unless you are already pushing max, seating deep, and chambering the round more than once (or just unlucky.)

Keep in mind this was with 100% homogenous match grade brass, mixed brass reloads could vary significantly from what I found in my study tonight.

:)
 
Also somewhat noteworthy if you are a reloading geek:

I tested 185gr Golden Saber bullets, same setup as above, lot of 6, chambered 4 times each with the bullet seated 1/2 twist of the seating die deeper each pass. Worst setback over 24 chamberings and 4 seating depths was .010" and occurred at the deepest seating depth on the 1911 (2 full twists down of the RCBS die from standard Premium factory load on that bullet weight).

I took pics of that process but haven't put the data in Excel to analyze fully.
 
I had trouble with RP 185 JHP and Rainier SWC setting back.
I just quit fooling with the Rainier and went to moly coated, eventually to roundnose.

The JHPs get a case cannelure at the base of the bullet like some factory loads.
That keeps them put, by gum.
 
This all reminded me of another issue. I had SEVERE problems with setback on 147gr golden sabers in 9mm, enough so that I discontinued using them. The "driving band" they form in to those is one of the drawbacks to the round. Crimping didn't help whatsoever in that case - because the driving band at proper seating depth is BELOW the case mouth (leaving an open air "gap" between the case mouth and the main body of the projectile).

Really poor design overall.

BTW, the setback was bad enough to cause severe "guppy bellies" on brass even when shot with moderate loads in load development. (That's why I really dug in to the problem in the first place.)

Had I been shooting those at max, or +P pressures? Bad news indeed.

Anyway, to crimp or not to crimp, that is the question....Most of the time, no, but if you like to experiment, sometimes you find it's necessary to meet your goals.
 
Really poor design overall.
Click to expand...
It is a bore riding design. (Something you see mostly with lead rifle bullets.) In my experience with them in 230 Gr .45 ACP and 124 Gr 9MM they will get less velocity with the same charge as another similar JHP, but you get less pressure from less bore friction, so you can add more powder and get more velocity with them than the conventional JHP.

I have not had any setback problems worth worrying with with either caliber. Is there a little if the gun feeds roughly, as in banging on the "feed" ramp on the way to the chamber? Yes. Enough to worry with if you shoot the round without multiple re-chamberings? No.
 
The first and only time I expereinced a squib was when I was making up some test loads with various powder charges on my newly acquired progressive press. I learned a valuable lesson. Whenmaki ng any adjustments on a progressive press clear all the cases and start from scratch!
 
I have a progressive and I have always been leery of loading very small pistol loads with it. So what I do is one last quality check where I weigh every round on an electronic scale. It will pick up a squib or double in a heart beat. I have had no doubles but I have caught one where I missed getting powder in it.
Click to expand...

While this sounds good, variability in case and bullet weights often makes it impossible to pick out even a 5 gr difference and have it mean anything.

This "myth" seems to have a life of its own, and those who believe it works simply don't understand elementary statistics.
 
Yup. Weigh a batch of bullets and brass sometime. You'll see an extreme spread that will be eye opening. :)
 
As far as WHY jacketed semiwadcutter in 45ACP...I found that the dang things were highly accurate
Click to expand...

Those wouldn't happen to be the Remingtons, would they Trent? I have a friend who did extensive testing on the accuracy of different 200 grain SWC's, and found (to his surprise) that the jacketed Remingtons were the most accurate in the test guns.

As for the OP, I don't think anyone has posted this link yet (at least in this thread), but these LED light strips for progressive presses are excellent:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/945236/inline-fabrication-universal-led-light-kit-with-ceiling-light-for-reloading-press
 
Captaingyro said:
Those wouldn't happen to be the Remingtons, would they Trent? I have a friend who did extensive testing on the accuracy of different 200 grain SWC's, and found (to his surprise) that the jacketed Remingtons were the most accurate in the test guns.
Click to expand...

Yup, the one and same.

I liked them so much I ordered more in late 2009, and have about 300 pounds of them still. I'll be shooting them at bowling pins and paper until I'm old and gray. :)

Well, old, anyway. My hair is already skipping gray, and turning white.

EDIT: TO clarify, I have the 185gr versions here (I mis-remembered the weight earlier and just checked my invoices from 2009)

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/53...cket-truncated-cone-box-of-2000-bulk-packaged

When I bought them they were 342.99 per 2000.

I ordered 5 boxes total (10,000), but one split on the way here and most of the 2000 bullets in that one ended up on the side of the road, my driveway, my neighbors driveway, and rolling around in the UPS truck(s).
 
ljnowell said:
Thats what an overly taper crimped round looks like.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is "overly" crimped, but with those particular projectiles in an autoloader, it was absolutely necessary, to prevent significant setback.

FYI, they still shoot just fine, remarkably fine, in fact. :)
 
Yes, it is "overly" crimped, but with those particular projectiles in an autoloader, it was absolutely necessary, to prevent significant setback.

FYI, they still shoot just fine, remarkably fine, in fact.
Click to expand...
I have no doubt that they still shoot just fine. I just think there are better ways to fix the issue. I used to shoot a lot of 185gr JHP in 45acp, just because they were the cheapest jhp I could find. I took my PXT die apart and measured the expander inside and found that it was .450". I took it and polished it out until it was at .4485". No problems even on 185gr JHP after that and great neck tension on the other bullets. I did the exact same thing to my 38/357 dieset, it allows me to use brass I probably would have thrown away otherwise, and, I can actually use 9mm cast lead in a few of my loads for certain guns.

By fixing the issue that way I dont have to worry about the issues that come up with overcrimping(yes there are some legitimate concerns). Not that you will have problems with every case/bullet combo, but eventually you will come across a case that when overcrimped like that will lose more neck tension instead of helping.
 
ljnowell said:
I have no doubt that they still shoot just fine. I just think there are better ways to fix the issue. I used to shoot a lot of 185gr JHP in 45acp, just because they were the cheapest jhp I could find. I took my PXT die apart and measured the expander inside and found that it was .450". I took it and polished it out until it was at .4485". No problems even on 185gr JHP after that and great neck tension on the other bullets. I did the exact same thing to my 38/357 dieset, it allows me to use brass I probably would have thrown away otherwise, and, I can actually use 9mm cast lead in a few of my loads for certain guns.

By fixing the issue that way I dont have to worry about the issues that come up with overcrimping(yes there are some legitimate concerns). Not that you will have problems with every case/bullet combo, but eventually you will come across a case that when overcrimped like that will lose more neck tension instead of helping.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of increasing neck tension - the neck tension is plenty strong (and these are even .001" larger diameter than normal jacketed bullets, on TOP of the normal neck tension being set).

The problem is that unlike FMJ or HP ammunition, these impact the top of the chamber in such a fashion is SHOVES the bullet straight back. You simply do NOT get that with FMJ or JHP, due to the ogive. You don't even get that shooting lead cast SWC (which I also do), because lead will actually deform under that sort of pressure, and the round will slip in. Crimping the lead SWC is an exercise in futility as the lead will simply give way; copper is much tougher, and once that taper crimp ridge forms there's no way to set that bullet back any further. If it stovepipes (like in the XD) the mass of the slide isn't enough to push it in.

Even setting it straight up and smacking it with a hammer takes a profoundly hard whack to get it to budge, set up this way; it has to shear copper off the bullet. Do that with any other bullet without a crimp and it'll just compress straight in to the casing.

There's simply no other way to do it, period. Even if I set the neck tension .002 harder, it's STILL going to get pushed in when chambering (assuming the brass doesn't just buckle on seating; it's already damn tight).
 
It's not a matter of increasing neck tension - the neck tension is plenty strong (and these are even .001" larger diameter than normal jacketed bullets, on TOP of the normal neck tension being set).

The problem is that unlike FMJ or HP ammunition, these impact the top of the chamber in such a fashion is SHOVES the bullet straight back. You simply do NOT get that with FMJ or JHP, due to the ogive. You don't even get that shooting lead cast SWC (which I also do), because lead will actually deform under that sort of pressure, and the round will slip in. Crimping the lead SWC is an exercise in futility as the lead will simply give way; copper is much tougher, and once that taper crimp ridge forms there's no way to set that bullet back any further. If it stovepipes (like in the XD) the mass of the slide isn't enough to push it in.

Even setting it straight up and smacking it with a hammer takes a profoundly hard whack to get it to budge, set up this way; it has to shear copper off the bullet. Do that with any other bullet without a crimp and it'll just compress straight in to the casing.

There's simply no other way to do it, period. Even if I set the neck tension .002 harder, it's STILL going to get pushed in when chambering (assuming the brass doesn't just buckle on seating; it's already damn tight).
Click to expand...

Wow. Can you actually feel the bullets hitting? I would think that if they were hitting that hard it would be something you could physically detect. I'll be honest I have never seen a round hit that hard to do that. I load all kinds of funky shaped JHPs, and I've probably loaded about every variation of the swc in 45acp. Never had one hit that hard.
 
ljnowell said:
Wow. Can you actually feel the bullets hitting? I would think that if they were hitting that hard it would be something you could physically detect. I'll be honest I have never seen a round hit that hard to do that. I load all kinds of funky shaped JHPs, and I've probably loaded about every variation of the swc in 45acp. Never had one hit that hard.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, you can definitely feel a little ripple when it chambers, as you shoot (except the Taurus PT145, it's as smooth as butter in that gun.).

I can smooth it out a lot if I set the OAL per-firearm, because each tends to have a sweet spot they like, but that won't reliably chamber in others. The 1911 likes them a little longer, the Glock likes them a little shorter. If I wasn't so anal about getting a universal load to work in everything with one OAL, I could easily load them to that sweet spot and forego the heavy crimp.

It's really tough to get SWC to feed reliably in ONE autoloader, but to get one load that'll work in 6 different brands of firearms reliably is tricky. The load I landed on works in the Glock 21, H&K USP Tactical 45, Taurus 24/7, Taurus PT145, Springfield 1911, and the Smith & Wesson M&P5. I couldn't get it to work at any length in the XD.

Those firearms have pretty dramatically different feed angles, ramps, etc, and I only found a very narrow range that would work in all of them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
blew up my sig...well kinda
2 3
Replies
62
Views
4K
Fishslayer
Fishslayer
SSN Vet
  • Locked
almost blew it......
Replies
3
Views
504
Walkalong
Walkalong
M
  • Locked
I think I'm ready to mix up my first batch of reloads...
Replies
13
Views
534
MacTech
M
longdayjake
  • Locked
Blew up a Kahr
2 3
Replies
54
Views
3K
LiveLife
LiveLife
S
  • Locked
Handloading newbie: How do I charge this rifle case?
Replies
11
Views
709
brickeyee
B
Back
Top