Primer Explosion
- Thread starter carlo1776
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10 Spot Terminator
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Let us not forget people that companies such as Remington and several others who design military firearms have built firearms with electric ignition systems in them . Static electricity gets far and away severely hotter than 110 volt household current ( electric fence scenario ) . Dont think so ? Get yourself hit by lightning one time and if you survive it odds are you will have changed your mind. I worked in a high voltage manufacturing facility for nearly 20 years and saw plenty of examples of what static electricity can do. Have had those days when the atmospherics were just right and everytime you touched something you got the snap and at times were definitely hotter sparks than others and at times hot enough you can hear it when it goes off. Can static electricity set of a primer ? I would be willing to bet it can . Would be curious what brand and exact model primer that got the poor fella. All primers not being equal and all that. I suspect may have been a magnum series designed to burn hotter with a more volatile makeup than others to begin with. Ever notice how even in the earliest days you never saw a metal primer flipper tray or primers packaged in metal containers. Why do you suppose that might be ???
10 Spot
10 Spot
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Black powder caps come in metal tins.
What would make them static proof when primers aren't??
rc
What would make them static proof when primers aren't??
rc
Primer safety: Why do I suppose might be?
Today, 11:50 AM #52
10 Spot Terminator
Member
Join Date: February 6, 2008
Posts: 198 . Ever notice how even in the earliest days you never saw a metal primer flipper tray or primers packaged in metal containers. Why do you suppose that might be ???
10 Spot
“Why do ‘I’ suppose that might be???”
When loading primer tubes I use a large flip tray, the flip tray is large enough to cover the large trays used by Federal, I have no clue what the capacity of the large flip tray is. I have dumped 300 primers into it with room to spare.
The large primer flip tray I use is metal and has to be expensive, with a metal lid. Stamped and or injected plastic is cheaper to manufacturer.
F. Guffey
Today, 11:50 AM #52
10 Spot Terminator
Member
Join Date: February 6, 2008
Posts: 198 . Ever notice how even in the earliest days you never saw a metal primer flipper tray or primers packaged in metal containers. Why do you suppose that might be ???
10 Spot
“Why do ‘I’ suppose that might be???”
When loading primer tubes I use a large flip tray, the flip tray is large enough to cover the large trays used by Federal, I have no clue what the capacity of the large flip tray is. I have dumped 300 primers into it with room to spare.
The large primer flip tray I use is metal and has to be expensive, with a metal lid. Stamped and or injected plastic is cheaper to manufacturer.
F. Guffey
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A number of reasons actually. Originally they were wood and paper. Now they are plastic. I would not be surprised if that plastic has carbon or some other conductive material mixed in to dissipate static electricity. In fact, I'm fairly certain of it with the Winchester primers. Plastic does not need to be black to be static conductive. Plastic is preferable over wood for that and other reasons, like cost.10 Spot Terminator said:
Anyway, the main reason for using plastic over metal is safety. It is much less lethal as shrapnel, and it tends to absorb shock, so a little less likely to propagate an explosion.
toiville2feathers
Member
I've had a thought about the primer explosion. could it be that he was using,or someone else was in the vicinity using a cell phone. If you filling your car at the gas station have you ever noticed the warning about cell phone use. There is a reason for posting it there and it isn't for entertaining ready while you waiting to get it full.
Just a thought
Just a thought
Sun Tzu warrior
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- 384
Sounds to me that your neighbor was making a detonator out of a shell casing,and it went off while he tried to crimp it, I had a neighbor loose a finger "because a chicken feeder fell on it" yeah that's it.....
As a child (10 years old) I had a 12 ga shotgun primer go off on me, an empty case, no powder, no shot.
Just me, a vice, the empty 12 ga shot shell, and a phillips screw driver..... the anvil stayed in my hand for over 30 years before I had it removed. I didn't even remember the incident, I guess I blocked it out of my memory, (I was afraid to tell dad what I had done) until I saw the X-rays all those years later. It may not be as bad as I first described, but I would be willing to bet, as in my case, it was self inflicted!
Fguffy, I have always purchased precussion caps in a metal containers. I am absolutly certain they are more suseptable to static electricity, than primers. There is more to this story than even the OP is aware of.
As a child (10 years old) I had a 12 ga shotgun primer go off on me, an empty case, no powder, no shot.
Just me, a vice, the empty 12 ga shot shell, and a phillips screw driver..... the anvil stayed in my hand for over 30 years before I had it removed. I didn't even remember the incident, I guess I blocked it out of my memory, (I was afraid to tell dad what I had done) until I saw the X-rays all those years later. It may not be as bad as I first described, but I would be willing to bet, as in my case, it was self inflicted!
Fguffy, I have always purchased precussion caps in a metal containers. I am absolutly certain they are more suseptable to static electricity, than primers. There is more to this story than even the OP is aware of.
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Yes. The reason is there slide stupid. Next their going to tell us that refilling bottle will cause cancer.
They don't even post no smoking signs at the pump here anymore.
Today, 01:58 AM #58
Sun Tzu warrior
Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 66
Fguffy, I have always purchased percussion caps in a metal containers. I am absolutely certain they are more susceptible to static electricity, than primers. There is more to this story than even the OP is aware of.
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Last edited by Sun Tzu warrior; Today at 02:20 AM.
Sun Tzu Tzu, thank you for that information, I have three tins of percussion caps, I have never found percussion caps in anything but tins (small, round metal cans), the percussion caps are allowed to rattle around and bounce against each other, it has been that way from the beginning, I have one tin that has the appearance of having been walked on, the tin looks like a Kessler can of solder paste. The oval top is no longer convex-ed, the bottom is dented but no ignition, I would only guess the tin will support more weight than a fiber box, and if disaster struck the tin could contain the damage inflicted on the abusive user. Then there is the seal, there is no way to seal a fiber carton, a good fitting metal lid would fit a good metal fitting cup/tin, in the old days that is all they had. I am sure they had static electricity in the old days, as sure as I am static electricity was present I am sure the ride was rougher, and I am convinced the tin was less likely to be crushed, the tin is the better choice.
Again, I use a metal flip tray,
In the old days explosions were not uncommon, DuPont on the Brandywine, would not allow dogs on the premises, workers did not want to take a chance on being buried with the remains of dog.
http://www.cowart.info/Florida History/Dupont/Dupont Biography.htm
F. Guffey
Sun Tzu warrior
Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 66
Fguffy, I have always purchased percussion caps in a metal containers. I am absolutely certain they are more susceptible to static electricity, than primers. There is more to this story than even the OP is aware of.
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Last edited by Sun Tzu warrior; Today at 02:20 AM.
Sun Tzu Tzu, thank you for that information, I have three tins of percussion caps, I have never found percussion caps in anything but tins (small, round metal cans), the percussion caps are allowed to rattle around and bounce against each other, it has been that way from the beginning, I have one tin that has the appearance of having been walked on, the tin looks like a Kessler can of solder paste. The oval top is no longer convex-ed, the bottom is dented but no ignition, I would only guess the tin will support more weight than a fiber box, and if disaster struck the tin could contain the damage inflicted on the abusive user. Then there is the seal, there is no way to seal a fiber carton, a good fitting metal lid would fit a good metal fitting cup/tin, in the old days that is all they had. I am sure they had static electricity in the old days, as sure as I am static electricity was present I am sure the ride was rougher, and I am convinced the tin was less likely to be crushed, the tin is the better choice.
Again, I use a metal flip tray,
In the old days explosions were not uncommon, DuPont on the Brandywine, would not allow dogs on the premises, workers did not want to take a chance on being buried with the remains of dog.
http://www.cowart.info/Florida History/Dupont/Dupont Biography.htm
F. Guffey
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Lloyd Smale
Member
aint happening. Something else hes not admitting was involved.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
For what it's worth:
Electrostatic Discharge Testing
of Propellants and Primers.
SANDIA REPORT
SAND92-2416 • UC-742
Unlimited Release
Printed February 1994
Apparently the Sandia Nation Labs played around with this subject. Take it for what it is or is not worth.
Ron
Electrostatic Discharge Testing
of Propellants and Primers.
SANDIA REPORT
SAND92-2416 • UC-742
Unlimited Release
Printed February 1994
Apparently the Sandia Nation Labs played around with this subject. Take it for what it is or is not worth.
Ron
Interesting link Ron.
Note how they set up the test; the got the spark THROUGH the priming material.
Of note, NONE of the commercial sized primers that were tested, ignited at human attainable levels of static electricity, despite being shocked directly through the primer material.
The primers which ignited at human levels are;
20mm electric
30mm
Large Rifle (Electric)
None of the percussion smaller primers went, including 50 BMG and 20mm arsenal primers.
Note how they set up the test; the got the spark THROUGH the priming material.
Of note, NONE of the commercial sized primers that were tested, ignited at human attainable levels of static electricity, despite being shocked directly through the primer material.
The primers which ignited at human levels are;
20mm electric
30mm
Large Rifle (Electric)
None of the percussion smaller primers went, including 50 BMG and 20mm arsenal primers.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Yeah, that was the part I found interesting. Try as they did they were unable to get a detonation on any of the primers we have come to know and love.
Having been in electrical engineering for over 40 years I have learned that electricity including electro static discharge, does not always behave the way we think it should. Every now and then we see something happen that just sort of defies the logic of the beast.
However, with that said, I still do not see a primer detonating from being touched or even drawing a small ESD arc.
Ron
Certaindeaf
member
I wonder if Sandia could test that spontanious human combustion business. probably not
X-Rap
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- Sep 23, 2006
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- 6,657
I used to keep all my primers in used pickle jars but when I knocked one off the bench it would take hours to seperate the primers from the glass, I went to the hardware and got some 3" pipe nipples and some caps and now they are safe and sound and with some teflon tape on the threads there are waterproof as well
Never trusted that packaging that came from the factory.
Never trusted that packaging that came from the factory.
Today, 11:25 AM #67
X-Rap
Member
Join Date: September 23, 2006
Posts: 3,554 I used to keep all my primers in used pickle jars but when I knocked one off the bench it would take hours to seperate the primers from the glass, I went to the hardware and got some 3" pipe nipples and some caps and now they are safe and sound and with some teflon tape on the threads there are waterproof as well
Never trusted that packaging that came from the factory.
__________________
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king
Somewhere out here is a warning, something about the danger of placing primers is a class jar, the same warning comes with ‘Hot Ice’.
Throughout this thread is a warning and or a caution, it has to do with confinement, a press on lid is better than a screw on lid, when something lets go I 'let it go’ I want no part of confining ‘it’ with anything that is going to allow resistance to pressure building. I do not know the tested strength of the 3” pipe, I do not know if the pipe is metal and or PVC.
Many years ago we made toys out or carbide, long baking soda cans with tight lids, we would punch a hole in the bottom of the can, add carbide, add spit, elevate the can, hold with our foot then light the gas escaping the hole. Most entertaining until an adult came along and thought we were having too much fun, Then there were the large bolt attached with one nut in the center, we cut match heads off, packed the area between the bolt heads then threw them.
Then there was the day we almost orphaned ourselves, when my son would ask to use a tool I ask “What for?”
F. Guffey
X-Rap
Member
Join Date: September 23, 2006
Posts: 3,554 I used to keep all my primers in used pickle jars but when I knocked one off the bench it would take hours to seperate the primers from the glass, I went to the hardware and got some 3" pipe nipples and some caps and now they are safe and sound and with some teflon tape on the threads there are waterproof as well
Never trusted that packaging that came from the factory.
__________________
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king
Somewhere out here is a warning, something about the danger of placing primers is a class jar, the same warning comes with ‘Hot Ice’.
Throughout this thread is a warning and or a caution, it has to do with confinement, a press on lid is better than a screw on lid, when something lets go I 'let it go’ I want no part of confining ‘it’ with anything that is going to allow resistance to pressure building. I do not know the tested strength of the 3” pipe, I do not know if the pipe is metal and or PVC.
Many years ago we made toys out or carbide, long baking soda cans with tight lids, we would punch a hole in the bottom of the can, add carbide, add spit, elevate the can, hold with our foot then light the gas escaping the hole. Most entertaining until an adult came along and thought we were having too much fun, Then there were the large bolt attached with one nut in the center, we cut match heads off, packed the area between the bolt heads then threw them.
Then there was the day we almost orphaned ourselves, when my son would ask to use a tool I ask “What for?”
F. Guffey
Static electricity has its own behavior.
It tries to spread the electrons out uniformly over a conductive surface.
if the charge entered the anvil, it would try to get to the primer cup, right through the primer compound.
Static sparks need a defined energy to ignite things though.
If you keep the energy level low enough nothing much happens.
It is not the voltage OR the current alone, but the combination of both to provide adequate ignition energy.
Static sparks can get up to 20,000 volts.the current is VERY low though.
Fractions of a micro-amp.
There are tables showing the energy of a spark to ignite all sorts of things.
Gasoline, alcohols (various types, flour, sugar, just about any flammable dust you can think of.
One of the 'tricks' is to make sure the source of any static spark will be VERY high impedance.
This limits the current that can occur.
There is still very likely more to this story though.
It tries to spread the electrons out uniformly over a conductive surface.
if the charge entered the anvil, it would try to get to the primer cup, right through the primer compound.
Static sparks need a defined energy to ignite things though.
If you keep the energy level low enough nothing much happens.
It is not the voltage OR the current alone, but the combination of both to provide adequate ignition energy.
Static sparks can get up to 20,000 volts.the current is VERY low though.
Fractions of a micro-amp.
There are tables showing the energy of a spark to ignite all sorts of things.
Gasoline, alcohols (various types, flour, sugar, just about any flammable dust you can think of.
One of the 'tricks' is to make sure the source of any static spark will be VERY high impedance.
This limits the current that can occur.
There is still very likely more to this story though.
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