Police Face Ammo Shortages
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Old Dog
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Cases? Really? I think not. "Friend's brother in law in the USBP?"
We don't have a shortage, but we account for every round taken to the range, and brought back to the armory ...
I've worked for departments where we maybe were given 100 or 200 rounds per year to practice with in our duty weapons , but seriously, some of the posts in this thread are downright silly.
The purpose of law enforcement is NOT to protect individual rights. It never was and never will be. The real purpose is to keep order in population by enforcing existing laws.
Since law enforcement is dangerous occupation the magazine capacity limits do not apply and ammo for them should be readily available. Law enforcement first the public next.
Funny the ammo shortage cops are having was being blamed on gun owners hoarding today on Fox.
Perfect storm.
Perfect storm.
We all know who is most responsible for ammo shortages. It's the private individuals buying excessive quantities. This behavior is motivated and nurtured on unsubstantiated fears that border on paranoia.
AethelstanAegen
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You are missing the point. That number of bullets is not unreasonable for a federal department which trains thousands of federal employees each year. In each of those training days, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds and some courses last multiple days. It looks like a huge number because we private citizens do not buy anything close to that amount because we are buying for one individual/one family. DHS's order is for the needs of thousands of people and spread out over several years (that order is not for one year alone). When you do the math, there are many civilian competition shooters who burn through more ammo in a year than the DHS is allotting for each trainee. What seems like a huge number to an individual, private buyer is actually standard fare for government orders (and has been for a long time) so the ammunition supply is already ready for such demand. DHS also purchases ammo for many different agencies/departments that would have been making separate orders in the past, so the number looks huge.
In terms of the shortage, it once again it's a numbers game. As someone pointed out there are 250 million guns in the US according to the NRA. Let's say each gun owner manages to buy 3 boxes for his guns each month because that's all he can find. that still amounts to 750 million BOXES a month. Let's say it's an even split between rifle (typically 20rds/box) and pistol (50rds/box) ammunition; so an average of 35rds/box. That 26.25 BILLION rds of ammo a month. That's a lot of ammo. Why is this abnormal? Because panic buyers bought up a ton of new guns and stockpiled a ton of ammunition. This was a sudden surge in demand. Thus there was a shortage. Meanwhile, everyone else notices the sudden shortage and starts to buy ammo (even if just 2-3 boxes at a time). Essentially, you now have all gun owners plus a large chunk of new gun owners all trying to ammunition at once, whereas normally the purchases would be scattered out through the year.
Essentially, if this was all because of DHS, how come there were shortages in 2008 and during the Clinton administration (heck, there wasn't even a DHS in the 90s)?
TL;DR: DHS isn't causing the ammo shortage. Their order is spaced out over many years, many agencies, and thousands of employees and is not much larger than previous government needs. It's all a matter of small purchases adding up into very, very large numbers and artificial demand.
SharpsDressedMan
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I think I can explain the local police vs. federal agency ammo usage. Both have a budget. Depending on the federal agency, and the persons being issued ammo (for instance, FBI agent vs FBI tactical or training officer), the amount available is often vastly different. I knew of an FBI agent, now retired, that was an HRT member and trainer, in a field office, and he often got excesses of ammo due to not being consumed on the range, changes of ammo issued, and misc and extra that was sent to augment training (.380, .223, 10mm, all kinds of stuff). He probably STILL has large amounts in HIS basement, as it "had to be disposed of". On the local level, it might be similar, if the agency has a nice amount of money for ammo or training. MOST small police agencies are NOT flush with money. Some shoot every month, and some hardly QUALIFY once a year, and never get to train with live ammo. Big disparity around the country, so some agencies are probably not able to just go grab some from the arms room, and are feeling the crunch just like everyone else, but I'm sure it is not across the board, and some agencies WILL get that ammo before it goes to your LGS or Walmart.
Texshooter
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avs11054 post # 49 The source is the people I know. Your cynicism does not mean it is not true. So, get over yourself.
And let us suppose all here you don't choose to believe are lying, then I think your response in and of itself is more than enough evidence it is better for the police to be in short supply than the honest citizens of this country that believe the 2nd is for all the people.
And let us suppose all here you don't choose to believe are lying, then I think your response in and of itself is more than enough evidence it is better for the police to be in short supply than the honest citizens of this country that believe the 2nd is for all the people.
Yes. We all know somebody who knows somebody who does something. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is true or if it is true, that it is standard practice. One person who uses their issued ammo in any gun they feel like does not mean that all cops do. In my opinion, people who make claims that these annecdotal stories apply accros the board are no better than the anti's who claim that "the only reason to own an assault rifle with high capacity clips is to kill as many people as possible in as short amount of time possible," or something to that affect.
Averageman
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In each of those training days, a trainee can burn through several thousand rounds and some courses last multiple days.
I think I'm gonna have to see that happen before I believe it. One Thousand rounds a day of Handgun ammo???
When you do the math, there are many civilian competition shooters who burn through more ammo in a year than the DHS is allotting for each trainee.
Again, I have to question the validity of this MANY number you are throwing out there. Many as in Millions, Thousands or perhaps less than One thousand?
Let's say it's an even split between rifle (typically 20rds/box) and pistol (50rds/box) ammunition; so an average of 35rds/box. That 26.25 BILLION rds of ammo a month. That's a lot of ammo. Why is this abnormal? Because panic buyers bought up a ton of new guns and stockpiled a ton of ammunition.
One More Time, I highly doubt everyone in America is shooting one box of ammo per gun they own, per month. It is more realistic to say many folks may buy one box and throw it in the back of the closet where it stays for six months.
This was a sudden surge in demand. Thus there was a shortage. Meanwhile, everyone else notices the sudden shortage and starts to buy ammo (even if just 2-3 boxes at a time).
Now we might have something we can agree on, but it still cannot account for the Billions of rounds that were on the shelves and warehouses before the sudden surge of buying.
I'm sorry, no one here has yet been able to explain what has happened to the ammo yet.
I think I'm gonna have to see that happen before I believe it. One Thousand rounds a day of Handgun ammo???
When you do the math, there are many civilian competition shooters who burn through more ammo in a year than the DHS is allotting for each trainee.
Again, I have to question the validity of this MANY number you are throwing out there. Many as in Millions, Thousands or perhaps less than One thousand?
Let's say it's an even split between rifle (typically 20rds/box) and pistol (50rds/box) ammunition; so an average of 35rds/box. That 26.25 BILLION rds of ammo a month. That's a lot of ammo. Why is this abnormal? Because panic buyers bought up a ton of new guns and stockpiled a ton of ammunition.
One More Time, I highly doubt everyone in America is shooting one box of ammo per gun they own, per month. It is more realistic to say many folks may buy one box and throw it in the back of the closet where it stays for six months.
This was a sudden surge in demand. Thus there was a shortage. Meanwhile, everyone else notices the sudden shortage and starts to buy ammo (even if just 2-3 boxes at a time).
Now we might have something we can agree on, but it still cannot account for the Billions of rounds that were on the shelves and warehouses before the sudden surge of buying.
I'm sorry, no one here has yet been able to explain what has happened to the ammo yet.
blarby
Member
Good.
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alsaqr
Member
Not hardly.
DHS letter to Senator Coburn. Subject; ammunition purchases:
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...tType_id=b4672ca4-3752-49c3-bffc-fd099b51c966
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postalnut25
Member
I am a LEO in a smaller department. We have had to curtail our firearms training due to ammo shortages. Instead of shooting once a month, it will be once a quarter. again, we are small (25 sworn) so 50-75 rounds per officer/per month is not unreasonable for training.
Once, in my time with my department, did I get extra ammo for my personal time. I was getting ready to change duty guns, and I was given a 50 round box to take the gun to the range, on my own time, and make sure it functioned with our duty ammo.
I always shoot department ammo in my personal guns. Since I have to buy my own gun for work, my duty and training ammo is getting shot in my personal firearms.
Once, in my time with my department, did I get extra ammo for my personal time. I was getting ready to change duty guns, and I was given a 50 round box to take the gun to the range, on my own time, and make sure it functioned with our duty ammo.
I always shoot department ammo in my personal guns. Since I have to buy my own gun for work, my duty and training ammo is getting shot in my personal firearms.
Queen_of_Thunder
member
Places with ammo limit the amount a person can purchase. If I'm lucky I can get 3 boxes of ammo (3 different calibers) 3 times a week. Maybe thats excessive for some people but 3 boxes of 9mm is not enough to replace what I shoot in a single match let alone the 4 matches a month I was shooting before this mess started. Of course that is if 9mm is even available. Of course how does one get mmo to practice with. If I could by ammo by the case I would but some stores in our area don't even get a full case of ammo. I remember one shops order was just a couple of boxes in different calibers.
I wonder why no one even considers all of the new shooters amd their impact on the ammo supply.
Well, Well, Well. No one is saying that you should be without ammo. Law enforcement does not come first, the army does. Their responsibities is to protect us (the USA) from attack from outside sources. Your attitude toward the people you are charged with "SERVE AND PROTECT" is quite disturbing. If you are not here to protect the community, then to be quite honest, I don't need you period. I will go out and find someone that would be willing to protect our community agains crime.
You completely miss the point of who you are working for and who pays your salary. If I wanted a security guard to inforce store policy, I certently would not give him or her a gun. You do not need a gun to keep order.
I do however expect police officers to PROTECT my property, family and my right to a peaceful life and to earn a living without being held up or hassled.
If this is not what you think is your JOB, then find a different line of work and I will find someone that respects my money and will PROTECT my community.
Jim
AethelstanAegen
Member
I'm not saying anyone's shooting a box of ammo a month. In general, I would agree with you that most people buy a box and leave it for months at a time. However, what we're seeing now is people in a panic ("Oh look, 9mm, I can't find this anywhere, I'll buy as much as I can") and so their behavior is quite different than it was before. I haven't had to buy much, as you clearly haven't either, but I had a decent stockpile ahead of time and I know things will normalize eventually. However, you and I are not panic buyers, that doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people that panic bought.
You may be incredulous, but certain classes span several days and trainees go through thousands of rounds. It's simply true whether you believe it or not. Join a federal agency that requires weapons training and you can see it for yourself.
There have been a number of posts with people discussing how many rounds they go through in a year in the past. Many serious competitive shooters shoot thousands of rounds in a year. I personally shot a little north of 3.5k rounds last year and I'm not a competitive shooter. I think it's safe to assume that the number who shoot more than that in a year is in the thousands.
DHS didn't go around to all the gun stores and buy up the ammo. As I said, the aggregate demand across millions of gun owners soared and wiped out the supply. Once people started to worry that all the ammo was disappearing, people went into full scale panic mode because they were unsure how long the demand surge would last and if ammo would be readily available. I have seen more people looking at the ammo shelf at my local Walmart in the last few months than I have seen over the span of several years. The local gun show had lines that wrapped around several city blocks. People's purchasing behaviors changed radically once they felt there was a shortage.
FIVETWOSEVEN
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First time I ever shot a .45 ACP 1911 was with one owned by a cop and the ammo we shot was left overs from last year that he was able to take home. Federal Hydrashoks.
JohnBT
Member
"I wonder why no one even considers all of the new shooters amd their impact on the ammo supply."
The obvious answer is that too many folks are all wrapped up in conspiracy theories about the government and don't take the time to look at the facts.
The obvious answer is that too many folks are all wrapped up in conspiracy theories about the government and don't take the time to look at the facts.
It's not the cops...
For example, the CEO of Olin/Winchester (who make Winchester brand ammunition) says that back-ordered commercial ammunition orders (the stuff you and I buy) exceed that of U.S. military service and law enforcement combined.
This I suspect, has some folks in Washington worried...
For example, the CEO of Olin/Winchester (who make Winchester brand ammunition) says that back-ordered commercial ammunition orders (the stuff you and I buy) exceed that of U.S. military service and law enforcement combined.
This I suspect, has some folks in Washington worried...
police have a dangerous occupation hahahaha . tell that to a 17 year old girl working in a 7-11 at 3am or a high tension lineman,logger. steel and bridge worker cab driver in the hood, hell even a flagmans job is more dangerous. that is all a myth in order to secure multi million dollar pensions at bargaining time
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