rcmodel
Member in memoriam
A matching dent in the bore I keep saying!
Second picture in the OP.
rc
How is this possible? Hole in the barrel!
- Thread starter nwilliams
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Second picture in the OP.
rc
Carl N. Brown
Member
I just went out and checked my pistol swinger target (which has been cratered but not penetrated by .357 from from a carbine and a couple of 7,62x39mm. Yep, I am accepting the theory that hole in the barrel is the result of a high velocity round. Truly a rare occurrance and a puzzler.
Cosmoline
Member
Has the fellow made any governments angry lately?
I was talking about the exterior of the barrel opposite, to see if you could detect a dimple.
I was talking about the exterior of the barrel opposite, to see if you could detect a dimple.
A couple considerations for those who say the barrel was shot with another rifle.
If so, where is the bullet? If the bullet didn't go through the other side, wouldn't you expect it to be lodged in the barrel? If the bullet did penetrate the barrel wouldn't you expect an exit hole, or a bulge or at least visible damage on the other side of the barrel? The second picture looks like normal rifling through the hole.
Second of all I have shot a bit of steel...mild steel, AR500, etc. While I have never shot a rifle barrel, I have shot some rebar and due to the round shape the rounds are deflected to one side or the other. It's almost impossible to hit so dead center that the round wouldn't deflect from one side or the other from a hardened steel rifle barrel.
And while rounds can keyhole, every bullet hole I've seen in steel that goes all the way through is perfectly round. That hole is not round.
Not saying I have all the answers but if in fact the rife was shot with another rifle then you have to agree that:
1. The owner is a liar (possible)
2. The bullet was somehow removed from the barrel after impact (possible but harder than lying).
3. That the stars aligned allowing a dead center hit from a rifle without deflection, and then after penetrating the first side of the barrel it stops and doesn't cause any visible damage on the opposite side of the barrel (all but impossible odds).
I don't think it's generally a good idea to disagree with rcmodel but I just think it would be nearly impossible for this to happen.
Do any of you really think you could replicate this easily? Who has an shot-out barrel that they are willing to go test? I'm serious...I would love to see someone replicate this.
I don't have all the answers as to why and how this happened...I'm just very skeptical it was shot with another rifle.
If so, where is the bullet? If the bullet didn't go through the other side, wouldn't you expect it to be lodged in the barrel? If the bullet did penetrate the barrel wouldn't you expect an exit hole, or a bulge or at least visible damage on the other side of the barrel? The second picture looks like normal rifling through the hole.
Second of all I have shot a bit of steel...mild steel, AR500, etc. While I have never shot a rifle barrel, I have shot some rebar and due to the round shape the rounds are deflected to one side or the other. It's almost impossible to hit so dead center that the round wouldn't deflect from one side or the other from a hardened steel rifle barrel.
And while rounds can keyhole, every bullet hole I've seen in steel that goes all the way through is perfectly round. That hole is not round.
Not saying I have all the answers but if in fact the rife was shot with another rifle then you have to agree that:
1. The owner is a liar (possible)
2. The bullet was somehow removed from the barrel after impact (possible but harder than lying).
3. That the stars aligned allowing a dead center hit from a rifle without deflection, and then after penetrating the first side of the barrel it stops and doesn't cause any visible damage on the opposite side of the barrel (all but impossible odds).
I don't think it's generally a good idea to disagree with rcmodel but I just think it would be nearly impossible for this to happen.
Do any of you really think you could replicate this easily? Who has an shot-out barrel that they are willing to go test? I'm serious...I would love to see someone replicate this.
I don't have all the answers as to why and how this happened...I'm just very skeptical it was shot with another rifle.
25cschaefer
Member
I have a few old Mauser barrels and a friend with some v-max .223 rounds, next time we go out I will test this and update this thread. I don't know when but maybe this week since it's spring break and all. I think RC is right, the hole is oblong because the barrel is round and there is not bullet because it was high velocity and fragmented upon impact. I have shot 1/4" steel plate with milk jugs behind that suffered very minor damage from fragments.
Aside from what actually caused the hole, does anyone else see what looks like two layers in there? There seems to be top layer of shiny stainless steel then a second level of darker metal, with a fairly clear dividing line between them. Is it a composite barrel of some kind or are my eyes playing tricks?
Jim
Jim
JRH6856
Member
I noticed that too, Jim K, but I think it is just the way the light is reflecting off the edges of the hole.
ApacheCoTodd
member
RC - I kep looking and I keep not seeing it in this photo, especially given the angle.A matching dent in the bore I keep saying!
Second picture in the OP.
rc
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
This dent in the opposite barrel wall:
Most of the remains of the vaporized bullet blew out through the muzzle, and if the rifle bolt was open, or opened later, the rest of it fell out through the action.
And as I mentioned in post #5, I have actually seen the exact same damage done on a Winchester Model 52 target rifle as a result of a ND in a gunsmiths shop many years ago.
rc
Most of the remains of the vaporized bullet blew out through the muzzle, and if the rifle bolt was open, or opened later, the rest of it fell out through the action.
And as I mentioned in post #5, I have actually seen the exact same damage done on a Winchester Model 52 target rifle as a result of a ND in a gunsmiths shop many years ago.
rc
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BBBBill
Member
The marks around the lip of the hole appear to be the mirror image of the rifling marks that would be engraved on a fired projectile. Hard to imagine that a softer projectile could transfer those rifling marks into the harder barrel metal, but there it is.....
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
30-06 hole in 2 Pounder cannon shell at 100 yards.
It went in one side and left a very small dent inside on the other side.
22-250 hole in Georges head at 100 yards.
I imagine the stainless steel of the Tikka barrel would react similarly but differently.
rc
It went in one side and left a very small dent inside on the other side.
22-250 hole in Georges head at 100 yards.
I imagine the stainless steel of the Tikka barrel would react similarly but differently.
rc
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243winxb
Member
Bullet Hole
22-250 hole in Georges head at 100 yards.
That's Benjamin Franklin and that silver half dollar used to be worth about $12 before it had a hole in it.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yep!
It is Ben isn't it.
But it was only worth .50 cents when I did it.
Thats two mistakes I made with the same darn coin!
rc
It is Ben isn't it.
But it was only worth .50 cents when I did it.
Thats two mistakes I made with the same darn coin!
rc
ApacheCoTodd
member
Got it RC. Thanks for the graphics. That was totally eluding me.This dent in the opposite barrel wall:
Most of the remains of the vaporized bullet blew out through the muzzle, and if the rifle bolt was open, or opened later, the rest of it fell out through the action.
And as I mentioned in post #5, I have actually seen the exact same damage done on a Winchester Model 52 target rifle as a result of a ND in a gunsmiths shop many years ago.
rc
25cschaefer
Member
Ok, I went to the range and conducted a few experiments on a shotgun barrel and a Turkish Mauser barrel. I gained a lot of info, some I expected, some I did not. All shots from an AR 15 (223), some at 25yds and some at 10yds, amour piercing and v-max.
First, bullets react strange when they go from metal to an air gap and then impact another piece of metal.
Second, Turkish Mausers have a sleeved barrel that made for some odd terminal ballistics.
At 25 yards, both 65gr penetrators, the glancing shots look almost identical in both the shotgun and rifle barrels.
Here is a better view of the rifle glaced with penetrators at 25, I began to suspect something was up with this barrel.
Here is a direct hit at 10yds with a steel core penetrator on the shot gun barrel. It went in, disintegrated and blew out at 90 degrees from entry.
From the side, you can see the spray on the inside.
A direct hit at 10 yds on the rifle barrel with a penetrator, it peeled the outer shell off the barrel and entered bore but only made a very minor dent in the other side, lots of lead spray.
This is a direct hit at 10yds with a Hornady V-max on the shotgun barrel. It went in and denigrated, only denting the other side.
A better shot of the 10yd penetrator hit, defiantly a sleeved barrel.
Here is a direct hit with a v-max at 10yds, it went through the first layer, dented the second and peeled out of the sleeve.
I accidentally shot a v-max into the fin left by the penetrator and it peeled even more.
This experiment solidified, for me, that the hole was caused by a high velocity, small bore round. Even in very thin metal, these rounds will evaporate before leaving the other side. The armor piecing rounds will penetrate 1/4" solid plate but won't penetrate two 1/8" pieces of steel. It is entirely possible for an expanding bullet to penetrate the 1/8" of steel on one side of a barrel and disintegrate without hardly scratching the other side.
First, bullets react strange when they go from metal to an air gap and then impact another piece of metal.
Second, Turkish Mausers have a sleeved barrel that made for some odd terminal ballistics.
At 25 yards, both 65gr penetrators, the glancing shots look almost identical in both the shotgun and rifle barrels.
Here is a better view of the rifle glaced with penetrators at 25, I began to suspect something was up with this barrel.
Here is a direct hit at 10yds with a steel core penetrator on the shot gun barrel. It went in, disintegrated and blew out at 90 degrees from entry.
From the side, you can see the spray on the inside.
A direct hit at 10 yds on the rifle barrel with a penetrator, it peeled the outer shell off the barrel and entered bore but only made a very minor dent in the other side, lots of lead spray.
This is a direct hit at 10yds with a Hornady V-max on the shotgun barrel. It went in and denigrated, only denting the other side.
A better shot of the 10yd penetrator hit, defiantly a sleeved barrel.
Here is a direct hit with a v-max at 10yds, it went through the first layer, dented the second and peeled out of the sleeve.
I accidentally shot a v-max into the fin left by the penetrator and it peeled even more.
This experiment solidified, for me, that the hole was caused by a high velocity, small bore round. Even in very thin metal, these rounds will evaporate before leaving the other side. The armor piecing rounds will penetrate 1/4" solid plate but won't penetrate two 1/8" pieces of steel. It is entirely possible for an expanding bullet to penetrate the 1/8" of steel on one side of a barrel and disintegrate without hardly scratching the other side.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Imagine that!!
But thinks for confirming what I have been saying all along.
rc
But thinks for confirming what I have been saying all along.
rc
25cschaefer
Member
One thing that bothers me about the story; the customer said he didn't notice it until he got home, I don't buy it. I had the Mauser barrel 4 inches into the rocky sand at the range and when hit at ten yards it flipped back about 6 ft, you would notice your rifle flipping off the bench or out of the rack. My guess is that the customer accidentally shot his own gun as he was taking another out of case loaded, or was unsafely loading/unloading it.
Bob N. Weave
Member
mystery hole in bbl.
The result of a weak spot(occlusion?) bursting.
The result of a weak spot(occlusion?) bursting.
ironworkerwill
Member
I'll give a dollar for that junk silver
JRH6856
Member
I'll give a dollar for it and throw in a nice clad Kennedy half to replace it. (Might be in bad taste to shoot that one).
BADUNAME30
Member
Bingo Bob !!
OP, send to manufacturer.
I am convinced it was the result of a bullet strike. I don't doubt that on a noisy range, if the rifle was sitting in a rack a bullet could hit it without it falling or doing anything especially noticeable. After all, any bullet fired has to hit something, if only the ground.
Jim
Jim
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