Army vet disarmed of his AR and 1911 by cop

I don't understand why Texas has a reputation of being gun friendly. It isn't the best of states when it comes to guns.

Someone is alarmed about someone carrying a gun is all it takes to get the cops giving you an anal check? I've had a similar thing happen. CMP M1 Garand shows up. I load up 5 rounds of .30-06 and shoot target at my 50 yard sand box. Deputy shows up, someone 'thinks' I'm shooting at them. I'm in a bowl (depression), I'd need a mortar to drop a round on the fraidycat.

The sandbox was a 4' x 4' x 4' filled with sand. I escorted the officer to the rear or the box and pointed out there were no exit holes. He went away and never came back.

From the sound of the wind in April, I know for sure it was Texas.

That is weird, I see there is a page 5 but it will not load.

Edit

Well it did but I shouldn't be at the top of it.

clutch said:

I don't understand why Texas has a reputation of being gun friendly. It isn't the best of states when it comes to guns.

Someone is alarmed about someone carrying a gun is all it takes to get the cops giving you an anal check? I've had a similar thing happen. CMP M1 Garand shows up. I load up 5 rounds of .30-06 and shoot target at my 50 yard sand box. Deputy shows up, someone 'thinks' I'm shooting at them. I'm in a bowl (depression), I'd need a mortar to drop a round on the fraidycat.

The sandbox was a 4' x 4' x 4' filled with sand. I escorted the officer to the rear or the box and pointed out there were no exit holes. He went away and never came back.

From the sound of the wind in April, I know for sure it was Texas.

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Just because you see a bad experience there doesn't mean TX is not gun friendly. It might not be the best but, it's better than most. I believe some recent ranking puts TX at #15 out of 50 states in terms of gun friendliness.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/03/14/ga-ranks-the-best-states-for-gun-owners-in-2013/
And just because you had a good experience doesn't mean your state is very gun friendly. Where does MI rank? #33 or something like that.

There are always anti-gun cops, or cops on power trips, in any states.

Sorry, but when in the past 200+ years has the Second Amendment been infringement free?

Texas law is clear and while you & I might not like state or local laws.........they DO APPLY until a court rules them unconstitutional. And the "display of a firearm in a manner calculated to cause alarm" IS a CRIME in Texas.

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The law as written in Texas is CLEAR as MUD. Its open to whatever whims and persuasions the officer is keen to on that particular day.

You have pointed out a fundamental flaw in our government, laws are passed regardless of if their Constitutionally permissible. Only after years in the courts do these laws ever get to make their way to the high courts to decide.

(f) Not being a peace officer, displays a deadly weapon, displays any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon, or represents verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm.

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And just who gets to decide the manner in which carrying a gun is "calculated to alarm". Its like calling something "Fair". Its entirely subjective and the difference between you breaking the law and not breaking the law is ENTIRELY up to someones reaction to you, NOT any action/inaction on your part.

That's not a flaw in the system. You'd rather have a years-long legal battle and delay prior to implementing every law while it works its way through the court system? Nothing would ever get done.


"Being a jerk isn't against he law either...."

No, but for most of recorded history it's been known to get you a ride downtown. That's not against the law either.

This one is going to cost 'em a bit o cash.

Umm. Yeah giving people a ride down town for no reason is against the law....

LEO's are becoming more a law unto themselves in this area. Recently I heard a Judge say due process was gibberish.

d2wing said:

LEO's are becoming more a law unto themselves in this area. Recently I heard a Judge say due process was gibberish.

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No kidding. Just Google Justice of the Peace Eric Williams. There's another shining example.

That's not a flaw in the system. You'd rather have a years-long legal battle and delay prior to implementing every law while it works its way through the court system? Nothing would ever get done.

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Yes, actually. I would prefer it that way. There's a saying "The government that governs least, governs best". Smaller government, get out of my way, get out of my life, let me prosper or fail on my own. That is how we were founded, that is how we prospered.


The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of our countries problems are born from the government trying to "fix" something and ending up making it either worse, or having "unintended" consequences. Least I name MEDICARE, SOCIAL SECURITY, funding and supplying the Taliban in the 80's against Russia, I can go on and on and on.

If you would stop and think for a whole minute maybe you would know why the officer is correct.

Hint #1: It has NOTHING to do with being a "second class citizen".
Hint #2: Read the applicable Texas law before you start complaining about the rule of law.
Hint #3: Like a lot of folks in this thread you are posting without having a clue what Texas law is or how it applies.

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Lets try Round 2 on this one :
Quote from Justin Flint, a Texas firearms attorney with Pursley McNamara & Flint, PLLC in Missouri City.

"if someone in Texas is “carrying a long arm, a rifle or a shotgun, that is legal in the state of Texas… So there is no real probable cause there for a stop or for the police to detain any person for any amount of time,” the attorney added, speaking in generalities in regards to the law."


Spoken from a firearms attorney in Texas. I'd venture to say HE knows what hes talking about.

Since probable cause is not needed for a stop, only reasonable suspicion, I must question the attorney's statement. Also, he is speaking in generalities. When the public calls 911 because you have alarmed them with your rifle, that is a more specific case.

Once again, I wasn't there, and I may have handled it differently, but without knowing more to the story (for example, what the 911 caller said), there is not enough information to determine if a law was broken.

Guy walking down the street, pistol on his side, carrying a rifle, with his boy in tow. Not pointing guns at anyone; what is your reasonable suspicion of anything illegal? I don't see it. And I used to be one of those guys that used to LOOK for it for 20 years. I might ask him what he is doing, and be ready to draw if he acts too goofy, but I am also prepared to let him go on his way if he seems to be o.k.

Open Carry in Texas

Open carry in not permitted in Texas , now get this, UNLESS it is a rifle or shotgun!

He had every RIGHT to carry that rifle and DOUBLY so to carry his pistol concealed!

I really do hope this guy SUE the snot out of Temple PD. If I were the lawyers for the NRA I would represent him pro bono.

That is wrong if he has his CHL he can carry his weapon and has no right to be disarmed, as far as the AR15 if its in Plain view with gun rack then he should not have been disarmed. If he did not have a CHL as long as the pistol is concealed say glove box, center counsel, on your seat covered with a sweater, he did nothing wrong.

I guess the cops ran a quick back ground found out he had all his paperwork in order and felt they needed to disarm him, maybe due to his training in the military, for the safety of the police, maybe they didnt want to get into a firefight with a seasoned veteran.

In reading over what the attorney said, the treatment of the son may be a huge problem for the police department. They wouldn't let him out of the car until he spoke to them. So the dad gets arrested for being loud and rude and the boy is detained for being quiet. The treatment of a minor is troubling. There are two sides to every story...sometimes more...but this looks to be a messy situation made more complicated by a couple of hotheads.

smogmage

Quote:
If you would stop and think for a whole minute maybe you would know why the officer is correct.

Hint #1: It has NOTHING to do with being a "second class citizen".
Hint #2: Read the applicable Texas law before you start complaining about the rule of law.
Hint #3: Like a lot of folks in this thread you are posting without having a clue what Texas law is or how it applies.

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Lets try Round 2 on this one :
Quote from Justin Flint, a Texas firearms attorney with Pursley McNamara & Flint, PLLC in Missouri City.

"if someone in Texas is “carrying a long arm, a rifle or a shotgun, that is legal in the state of Texas… So there is no real probable cause there for a stop or for the police to detain any person for any amount of time,” the attorney added, speaking in generalities in regards to the law."


Spoken from a firearms attorney in Texas. I'd venture to say HE knows what hes talking about.

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Apparently neither you nor Mr Flint has read the Texas Penal Code:

PENAL CODE
TITLE 9. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND DECENCY
CHAPTER 42. DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND RELATED OFFENSES
Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

(1) uses abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language in a public place, and the language by its very utterance tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;

(2) makes an offensive gesture or display in a public place, and the gesture or display tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace;

(3) creates, by chemical means, a noxious and unreasonable odor in a public place;

(4) abuses or threatens a person in a public place in an obviously offensive manner;

(5) makes unreasonable noise in a public place other than a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code, or in or near a private residence that he has no right to occupy;

(6) fights with another in a public place;

(7) discharges a firearm in a public place other than a public road or a sport shooting range, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code;

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

(9) discharges a firearm on or across a public road;

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To Contrast...

Here's an example of a MWAG call that didn't appear to end like the one posted here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWOTxvJibhM

You can quote the penal code all day long, it still doesn't change the fact that it's not applicable in this case. The mere carrying of a rifle isn't calculated to cause alarm. Someone's reaction to you CANNOT be the SOLE determining factor in the difference between you committing and not committing a crime.

The fact that this is even up for debate is Absolutely ABSURD.

The fact that you as a Texas resident keep pushing it as if merely carrying a gun is an act in and of itself "calculated to cause alarm" is more than enough reason for me to cross Texas of my list of "Free" states to flee to. So thanks for saving me the time and trouble.

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

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How is a slung rifle considered a display calculated to alarm? A slung rifle is harmless. Just like a holstered pistol.

And how would one prove that the displayer "calculated" to cause said alarm. Just because someone freaked out because they saw someone with a rifle over their shoulder does not mean that person intended to scare.

That is kind of like someone getting mad at a spider for that person being scared of spiders.

JColdIron said:

How is a slung rifle considered a display calculated to alarm? A slung rifle is harmless. Just like a holstered pistol.

And how would one prove that the displayer "calculated" to cause said alarm. Just because someone freaked out because they saw someone with a rifle over their shoulder does not mean that person intended to scare.

That is kind of like someone getting mad at a spider for that person being scared of spiders.

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Not to mention, according to the law, that you'd have to say how he "calculated" that it was going to cause alarm.

The thing is, the cop doesn't have to prove you were out to cause alarm. He just has to think you might have been.

The fact is that there was alarm if they got a call. That is going to get you talking to the officer. If during that discussion there is any doubt about your intent, well, that is the fun part of laws with grey areas instead of clear lines.

When talking with the officer responding to the MWAG call, how do you answer these questions?
"Do you think people might be concerned given recent events?"
"Can you understand why people might be concerned?"

Either of those could be twisted to intent. The officer gets to make a judgment call and your words and actions (and history) have an effect on that.

JColdIron said:

How is a slung rifle considered a display calculated to alarm? A slung rifle is harmless. Just like a holstered pistol.

And how would one prove that the displayer "calculated" to cause said alarm. Just because someone freaked out because they saw someone with a rifle over their shoulder does not mean that person intended to scare.

That is kind of like someone getting mad at a spider for that person being scared of spiders.

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Unfortunately, whether or not something is calculated to cause alarm is often determined by whether or not it does cause alarm or is likely to do so.

I know that open carry of rifles and shotguns is not common in the area where I live. I also know that anyone openly carrying a rifle or a shotgun is going to cause alarm for someone because the action is uncommon. Therefore, if I choose to openly carry a rifle or a shotgun, I do so knowing that it is likely to cause a alarm. And knowing that this is likely to get me arrested, I choose not to do so.

Their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/TempleTXPolice

Lets be honest, these small towns dont get the cream of the LEO crop many times.
I think all that has transpired will result in a definate loss of job for those two Police Officers and some money being paid by the City to settle this out of court.
You have two personalites dealing with each other, one of you can be the bigger Man and defuse the situation before it gets out of hand or you can bow up and be the tuff guy.
Neither did, now look where it leads us?
I'm all for clearing the AR, pocketing the mag and being friendly about the situation. I wonder what the reaction might have been at that point?
I came home to find the Fire Department putting out a fire on my deck due to an errant spark from someones ciggarette.
The FD had the fire mostly out when I arrived, but a LEO followed me from my driveway to my backyard. When I removed my shirt to rip some boards up to help the Fireman, the LEO had a bit of a hissy fit and wanted my pistol. I cleared the weapon and handed it to him. My line of thought was he didin't want someone who might be upset on the scene with the Firemen.
Well, in the end all he did was check the pistol ( as in yes, this is a legal pistol) and call in the serial numbers. I'm not sure what that had to do with anything, maybe SOP. So what I thought might be public safety problem turned in to a fishing expedition when he ran my serial numbers on my gun while standing on my property.
I did smile when one of the Firemen muttered A**h*le loud enough for the Officer to hear as we went back to work on the Fire.
I will say it did defuse the situation and let us get back to putting out the fire.