Army vet disarmed of his AR and 1911 by cop

What happened to the "benefit of the doubt". or presumption of innocence until PROVEN guilty? I get offended when no actual overt action has occurred (just a citizen walking down the street with a gun, with no directed threat),but the police treat it as if you just murdered someone. How about issuing a summons, noting a recognizance bond since he is local, and let the judge determine if a crime has really been committed, without putting out a POSSIBLY innocent man. Too much to ask?

I'm all for clearing the AR, pocketing the mag and being friendly about the situation. I wonder what the reaction might have been at that point?

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They would have shot him as he cleared it.

I don't understand why this is such a debate. He either broke the law or he didn't - period. As far as I can tell he didn't, and I hope he sues the pants off the police department, and the arresting officer(s) lose their jobs. One even admitted the law didn't really matter.....are you kidding me?

in the end all he did was check the pistol ( as in yes, this is a legal pistol) and call in the serial numbers. I'm not sure what that had to do with anything, maybe SOP

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Are officers allowed to just randomly breathalyze people they come across on the street with no justification? Kindly ask every third driver to open their trunk, please? Glad the officer didn't chase up anything (real or mistake) on his serial check, but that doesn't make that procedure okay. You were on your property, your gun, concealed or not, is none of his business if you aren't being hazardous. I'd comply with such a request, but at the least I would be asking the Chief about the practice.

Back on topic, we still have yet to see any evidence the MWAG did anything but obey the law. So far the officers' actions have only been shown to be sketchy...at best. Until we see a dashcam video showing that the guy was juggling ARs while shouting obscenities before being booked, he has the benefit of the doubt.

TCB

I have the serial number covered up with tape on my carry gun. Have to take the grips off to get the tape off -- easy enough to do if you have a search warrant.

Guy walking down the street, pistol on his side, carrying a rifle, with his boy in tow. Not pointing guns at anyone; what is your reasonable suspicion of anything illegal? I don't see it. And I used to be one of those guys that used to LOOK for it for 20 years. I might ask him what he is doing, and be ready to draw if he acts too goofy, but I am also prepared to let him go on his way if he seems to be o.k.

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There's the problem. Terry doesn't require that the officer articulate anything to the suspect, and he has plenty of time to make something up after the fact -- retroactive RAS.

I believe they DO have to tell you what you are being arrested for BEFORE they drag you away in cuffs. Wouldn't you just hate being the officer on the stand who is forced to admit that you didn't KNOW at the time what you were arresting someone for?

The problem as I see it (outside of the cops arresting him) was the initial call to the police by a "concerned citizen".
Just because a citizen is not use to seeing open carry or ignorant of the law, does not mean they should get the police involved in something like this.

My theory is that we need to desensitize the general public to open carry by doing it anywhere where it is lawful to do so. Read more in this THR thread;

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=710748

Otherwise our rights will continue to be diminished by those who think they are doing the right thing by calling the police any time they see someone OCing.

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Well there's a possible good outcome and a possible bad outcome to open carry movements. They started up a good size movement in California and enough people realized it was legal....so they went and got it banned. Now that no form of carry is legal in that horrid state they will be forced into legally allowing some form of carry. But only after much time and expense wasted on both sides.

I would prefer either the dispatcher informing the caller of the legality of what they are observing and not send officers to a non issue. Or punish these callers for wasting taxpayer money on wasted officers time and harassing citizens exercising their Rights.

Anyone notice when officer friendly confiscated the guy's .45, he barrel swipes him from shoulder to shoulder? Good grief...

Citizen points a gun at someone and its assault with a deadly weapon / aggravated assault.
Cop does the same thing and its just another day at work.

Anyone notice when officer friendly confiscated the guy's .45, he barrel swipes him from shoulder to shoulder? Good grief...
At this point perhaps they need to turn this in to a training film as to "What not to do, if you confront someone carrying a Long Gun legally in Texas" and show it at the Police Academy.
There is nothing like flagging a Mans brainstem with his handgun while he is in handcuffs and it is being filmed.
Are officers allowed to just randomly breathalyze people they come across on the street with no justification? Kindly ask every third driver to open their trunk, please? Glad the officer didn't chase up anything (real or mistake) on his serial check, but that doesn't make that procedure okay.
I dont have a problem with that when there are first responders on the scene a lot of people are overcome with emotions at times like these. I was surprised, he saw my CHL and the pistol, why not just sit it (as it was unloaded) aside and carry on with whatever he thought he was doing at the time.
As I said, the Firemen on the scene were not impressed at all and I'm sure they have more interaction with him than I do.
I would like to see the locals become a little more active in confronting the situation and finding resolution on the issue.

What happened to the "benefit of the doubt". or presumption of innocence until PROVEN guilty

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Innocence until proven guilty is a court issue. Grisham still has this, but "innocence until proven guilty" would not stop a person from getting arrested.

You are putting the cart before the horse. If operating that way, the police could not do their jobs because they could not arrest hardly anybody until they were convicted in court first where they were "proven guilty" and by then, most folks would be long gone.

^^Yeah, we all know that. But what was their "reasonable suspicion" to stop, and "probable cause" to arrest?

^^Yeah, we all know that. But what was their "reasonable suspicion" to stop, and "probable cause" to arrest?

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That's easy; "Smelled alcohol" would do it. That justifies the Terry stop without actual probable cause. The arrest was for not following orders during the Terry stop.

You're trying to look at it like an honest cop.

The sad part is, this kinda stuff probably happens all the time and since there's no evidence to the contrary like a video, it goes un noticed. Good thing they got it on film. There's no disputing what happened on film.

As far as the honest cop thing, we just had some local cops busted for planting drugs in a counter sting, but I'd like to think we as a whole have honest LEOs. I have never had issues with our local LEOs. I was stopped at a road block several years ago and I told the LEO I was carrying. He asked for license and concealed permit. He thanked me and went on my way.

This is a perfect example of why many people look upon "cops" as the enemy.

It doesn't take too many bad apples to ruin the reputation of good cops, especially, when the "good" cops look the other way when a "brother" officer gets our of line.

I have had some good experiences with Law enforcement, and a few bad ones.

I remember the bad ones a lot more vividly than the good ones.

osteodoc08 said:

The sad part is, this kinda stuff probably happens all the time and since there's no evidence to the contrary like a video, it goes un noticed. Good thing they got it on film. There's no disputing what happened on film.

As far as the honest cop thing, we just had some local cops busted for planting drugs in a counter sting, but I'd like to think we as a whole have honest LEOs. I have never had issues with our local LEOs. I was stopped at a road block several years ago and I told the LEO I was carrying. He asked for license and concealed permit. He thanked me and went on my way.

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According to a different news story, (sorry no link) it has happened in that area before. It seems the local DA hates guns and the local police do his bidding.

SixxshootinSam said:

Anyone notice when officer friendly confiscated the guy's .45, he barrel swipes him from shoulder to shoulder? Good grief...

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Yeah, I noticed that too. His gun safety technique needs work.

I am from Texas and it's been a long time since I studied the Penal code but I know for sure in Texas you can carry your Ar15 or your AK on the rifle rack on the back window of your pickup. People where I live carry loaded 30-30 and shotguns in the cab of their trucks and it is legal.I don't know for sure if you were on the street with it if it would be legal.You might be charged with disorderly conduct. What I mean by that If you had a AR and was walking down the street or go inside a business it could alarm people the police would respond.If you wanted to be a (idiot) and told the LEO to take a hike I'm sure you would find yourself in custody.

So you can drive around with it in full view but in your opinion you'd be charged with disorderly conduct for getting it out of the truck? How exactly would you put it in the truck in the first place? Pull the truck into your garage close the door put the rifle in; and the only way to get it out would be the reverse of that?

I'm failing to see the common sense anywhere in that.

smogmage said:

I'm failing to see the common sense anywhere in that.

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Ditto. I don't live in Texas but spend almost as much time there as I do at home, carry when there, so I've read the gun laws I think pretty thoroughly and can't find anything of the nature.

You are over thinking the problem. Sgt. Grisham was not breaking any laws, the police officer was in the wrong. Plain and simple.

Not all police officers are good guys. I am sorry, but that is a fact. Look at the trials of the New Orleans' officers charged with murder during Hurricane Katrina.

Some officers seem to think that they are the LAW, not servants of it.

Most are pretty honest and are worthy of our respect, but some just aren't.

What if you don't own a vehicle? The law needs to address the freedom you have to own and "bear" arms while walking down the street. Even in this day and age, people will be walking outside of vehicles with weapons, some of them across town, with no evil intent, possibly on the way to a shooting range or to the hunting gounds. Texas has to provide for lawful transport and carrying of arms in public, and ignore the cries of the ignorant, or those malicious few who call in sightings of such, and infer to the police that there is something criminal in the simple act of transporting guns.

On a side note, was Grisham read his rights? If he was, maybe I just didn't hear it on the video.

I just watched the video for the first time and I gotta say, he's definitely getting out of this. At the end they came and told him he was under arrest, he asked what for. Then they told him resisting arrest. Do WHAT!

The FIRST time they told him he was under arrest they already had him in Cuffs, disarmed, and leaning (unattended) on the hood. THEN they arrested him for resisting. Lol. He's got that beat.

Did I miss something? I gotta watch it again, they can't be that stupid.


As far as I could tell he did nothing illegal, even the cops couldn't tell him of a law he was breaking. The only thing he did wrong that I saw was get all upset, calm down, let them answer and hurt themselves, like they did anyway. That said open carrying an AR probably wasn't the best idea given the current situation. Don't get me wrong, if you want to and it's legal then get after it, just realize that everyone doesn't share your view of freedom and you are likely to get hassled, right or wrong, it's the truth. Weigh the consequences and make your own decision, just don't act all surprised if you get hassled.



My 2¢



Excuse typos, posted via iPhone.