A home defense .223 rifle?

Warp said:

You are ill informed on this topic.

A 5.56/.223 round will not "punch through all kinds of barriers". In fact, it will penetrate as much, if not less than, a typical handgun round, when talking about interior walls and such. It is a lightweight, fast bullet, that tends to destabilize/tumble/fragment and lose momentum quickly once it strikes something.

There is no more of a barrier penetration concern with 5.56/.223 than there would be with a 9mm pistol.

You may want to educate yourself a little bit on this topic before making more comments like that.

Here is a great place to start.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

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While I understand that there is more information than I will ever absorb out there concerning 62 gr penetrating projectiles from the 5.56 platform, this is what I see:


I can say with certainty that you will not want to be next door to my home if I were to touch off a few rounds of 855 and miss my intended target.

Here are the barriers: Drywall (.5"), stucco(1"), 15 feet of air, stucco(1"), drywall(.5), flesh.

I don't see how much more informed I need to be. Do You?

PaisteMage said:

I do not have substantial evidence to go either way on the over penetration issue but I do know several sites that delve into this in a very minute manner.

From my conversations with ex and current military members and current police officers, the .223 is chosen due to the high fragmentation rate and loss of velocity: less chance of hitting person next door.

Disclaimer: I am in no way an expert and this is my and their opinion.

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I believe that the ammo chosen has plenty to do with this.

Listen, I do agree with the anyone concerning the argument that the NATO round is a very light and easily influenced projectile, however there items you cannot ignore. The slowing of the projectile in fleshy media due to tumbling and fragmentation at the canelure are big contributors to a limited depth of penetration. No argument from me.

I don't want to start a brawl fest and I do defer to those with a wealth of knowledge here. In terms of common ammo we all have, M855 is going to kill somebody next door if not attenuated by interim objects.

Would I use my Carbine for home defense? Of course. Loaded with whatever I had but preferably the hollow point projectiles, lead core.

Anyway, put your rumble sticks away. Remember that a 5.56 will punch through an 1/8 inch piece of steel at 600 yards.

bigdaa said:

While I understand that there is more information than I will ever absorb out there concerning 62 gr penetrating projectiles from the 5.56 platform, this is what I see:


I can say with certainty that you will not want to be next door to my home if I were to touch off a few rounds of 855 and miss my intended target.

Here are the barriers: Drywall (.5"), stucco(1"), 15 feet of air, stucco(1"), drywall(.5), flesh.

I don't see how much more informed I need to be. Do You?

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I sure do.

You apparently think that the entire realm of 5.56/.223 consists of ONE round/cartridge/option. How much less informed could a person possibly be?

Did you check out this link yet?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

How about this one?

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

Or, here's a new one for you:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

PS: I guarantee I don't want to be next door to your home when you \touch off, and miss with, several rounds of ANYTHING that you are using with the intention of reliably stopping an attacker.

PaisteMage said:

I do not have substantial evidence to go either way on the over penetration issue but I do know several sites that delve into this in a very minute manner.

From my conversations with ex and current military members and current police officers, the .223 is chosen due to the high fragmentation rate and loss of velocity: less chance of hitting person next door.

Disclaimer: I am in no way an expert and this is my and their opinion.

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Their opinion is factually correct.

I would agree on the ammo being a factor in penetration. I load mine with 55gr. Ballistic Tips around home. They won't hardly go through a prairie dog without coming apart.

Allow me to get right to the heart of that third link I provided above. Written by none other than Doctor Roberts (I dare you to find a more expert witness on this topic than him):

" Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. "

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

I think you have an ax to grind there, warp.

Why don't you relax and let things beyond your control be as they may. There's no reason to be slanderous and snide.

I happen to have a shelf full of penatrators on hand as well as 55 FMJ's +C. I have 80's and 62's. I've got M856's and even more.

So what? You can no more guarantee that my neighbor would be safe than I can and there's no need to hissy fit over it.

You can offer your opinion and I can offer mine. I will lean to the safe side and you will lean towards volumes of tests and other opinions.

There is no need to blindly flail in indignation here.

I never professed gospel.

bigdaa said:

I think you have an ax to grind there, warp.

Why don't you relax and let things beyond your control be as they may. There's no reason to be slanderous and snide.

I happen to have a shelf full of penatrators on hand as well as 55 FMJ's +C. I have 80's and 62's. I've got M856's and even more.

So what? You can no more guarantee that my neighbor would be safe than I can and there's no need to hissy fit over it.

You can offer your opinion and I can offer mine. I will lean to the safe side and you will lean towards volumes of tests and other opinions.

There is no need to blindly flail in indignation here.

I never professed gospel.

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What happens when various projectiles encounter barriers isn't a matter of opinion. That's the thing. This is all actual factual information that has been proven over and over again, for years and years.

I dislike when people spread false information. If you get upset when corrected, that's your problem.

But, I am curious...what makes you think Doctor Roberts is wrong?

And what do you choose that you consider to be leaning to the safe side?

First, don't put words in my mouth. I got a wife for that. Never id I ever say the Doctor was wrong. If we are going to engage in a ball game, quit moving the hoop.


Warp, by the Doctors own explanation, I lay this at your lap to absorb:


"Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier."



Understanding that by my own 35 years of seat of the pants flying, this sums up my concerns to collateral damage in my urban setting.

While I cannot take the individual losses in kinetic energy per encountered target in the real scenario I describe, I can "feel" what the bullet has to offer by seeing years of impacts in kind of a cloud format of information.

We all have a certain amount of recollection of target impacts and secondary damage results and I am no exception.

I'll fully admit that I could be wrong here in certain specific scenarios, but dammit, all it takes is one that I have described being correct to have horrendous outcomes.

In this situation, indignation need not play into the formula.
These "ancillary" barriers are not water based and may not induce the power robbing keyhole effect letting the bullet perform more as a penetrating object than a side-on effectively higher caliber intruder to soft tissue.

So I am considering int he next year or so getting a compact rifle that shoots .223 for something to maneuver around the house with, in a home defense scenario.

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The obvious choice is one of the many varieties of AR. The currenly "standard" 16in carbines with collapable stocks would probably be a perfectily fine choice. If you really want to minimize the size, you could build one with a 14.5 inch barrel and permenantly attached flash suppressor (anything smaller whould be a SBR and require a NFA tax stamp). From there, you can go from out-of-the-box stock to as highly modified as you want.

Prices on ARs are coming back down again so sub-$2K is easily achievable with one of the quality manufacturers.

You won't get a G36 here in the US.

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Heh! I was confused at first as to why one wouldn't find a Glock 36 in the US? Then I realized you were talking about the H&K carbine.

JShirley said:

Scientific fact is different than mere opinion. 5.56mm is a safer choice for home defense with almost all ammunition. This is fact.

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Well, in my feeble opinion, that would make our choice of caliber lead to a crappy battle implement from the get go.

mdauben said:

The obvious choice is one of the many varieties of AR. The currenly "standard" 16in carbines with collapable stocks would probably be a perfectily fine choice. If you really want to minimize the size, you could build one with a 14.5 inch barrel and permenantly attached flash suppressor (anything smaller whould be a SBR and require a NFA tax stamp). From there, you can go from out-of-the-box stock to as highly modified as you want.



:

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I see that mdauben and I are on the same page with a short carbine. You can obtain an 11 inch barrel with a 5 inch flash hider. I happen to have that particular flash hider from DPMS on my 16 inch carbine.

JShirley said:

Scientific fact is different than mere opinion. 5.56mm is a safer choice for home defense with almost all ammunition. This is fact.

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Aren't facts a wonderful thing?

A light varmint bullet of 50 to 55 grains would be the least harmful bullet to neighbors. Whatever might penetrate a neighbor's wall would be very much slowed down, and very likely much reduced in size/weight.

Less risk of harm than with almost any other bullet, anyhow.

For sure, inside a house, a light varmint bullet would be quite adequately effective in defensive use. Does horrible things inside a coyote, anyhow.

I have to say that it all comes down to the choice of ammo you put in your AR defense gun. The thin skin match bullets and like you say, eatman.....varmint rounds which are meant to be very explosive would offer the protection and safety over secondary wound infliction.

In this regard, we are all able to be specifically outfitted with a tailor made round to the circumstances we find ourselves in with our home and neighbor considerations.

Frangible rounds would suit the close packed neighbor situations to boot.


I did notice that you blithely skipped over the Doctor's offering of:

"Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier." Warp.

Now, what were you saying about facts being wonderful?

bigdaa said:

Well, in my feeble opinion, that would make our choice of caliber lead to a crappy battle implement from the get go.

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That's why they say ALMOST ALL instead of all. M855 can go through a lot of things. In Iraq we used to "prep" buildings we were going into by shooting them a bit first. I have a friend whose father in law ND'd his AR in his home and the M855 went through his entire house, including to slabs of granite in the bathroom.

On the opposite side my department uses 55 grain hollow point Federal Tactical as our duty round. In our own testing this round won't reliably penetrate an interior wall if it hits a stud. However it is incredibly devastating against bad guys.

I would be interested in hearing what bullets were tested in the penetration tests. Even soft point 223 will easily pass through a 6-8" live tree trunk. FMJ makes quick work of 1/4" mild steel at 100 yds.
I haven't personally tested these bullets on multiple layers so I don't know what happens past the steel plate but I suspect that a bullet with a solid jacket or penetrator core would pass easily through a few layers of sheetrock and plywood.
Hollow points or hyper expansion bullets like Ballistic Tips are vastly different in performance and I have seen a Ballistic Tip that shattered on a coyotes front leg with the shards of bullet being all that past into the chest to kill it.

C-grunt said:

That's why they say ALMOST ALL instead of all. M855 can go through a lot of things. In Iraq we used to "prep" buildings we were going into by shooting them a bit first. I have a friend whose father in law ND'd his AR in his home and the M855 went through his entire house, including to slabs of granite in the bathroom.

On the opposite side my department uses 55 grain hollow point Federal Tactical as our duty round. In our own testing this round won't reliably penetrate an interior wall if it hits a stud. However it is incredibly devastating against bad guys.

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Wow! Not even a stud?

I am quite aware of Corbons method of using light projectiles at hyper velocities to obtain obscene energy.

K.E.= 1/2mv², and it shows up quite well in their offerings.

The remnants of that Fed Tac H.P. must be hard to count, eh?

Sorry my point was made while typing.

JShirley said:

Since the human body is only about 12" deep, I disagree. The 5.56x45mm has adequate range and terminal effects for infantry use- something else I understand from an experential and historical basis.

John

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"Bodies" tend to hide themselves in battle as C-grunt illustrates.

This is the consideration I had in mind when I made that statement.

Opposition in the open.........one thing.


Opposition behind a mud wall...........another thing.


I know one thing for certain, I will be behind a barrier, the best I can find in any altercation.

bigdaa said:

I have to say that it all comes down to the choice of ammo you put in your AR defense gun. The thin skin match bullets and like you say, eatman.....varmint rounds which are meant to be very explosive would offer the protection and safety over secondary wound infliction.

In this regard, we are all able to be specifically outfitted with a tailor made round to the circumstances we find ourselves in with our home and neighbor considerations.

Frangible rounds would suit the close packed neighbor situations to boot.


I did notice that you blithely skipped over the Doctor's offering of:

"Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier." Warp.

Now, what were you saying about facts being wonderful?

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The troll is strong in you. Quite reminiscent of somebody I know, actually...

If you are concerned with penetration through walls in your HD firearm, why are you loading a barrier blind round?

What do you propose as a better option than 5.56/.223, and why?