Gun shop employee who sold gun used at Newtown pleads guilty to paperwork charge

The Seattle (IIRC) that last had the AR15 using in the DC Sniper incident also had multitudes of violations. Sorry, but such stores probably should have already had their FFLs revoked. They should not be allowed to repeatedly screw up. They understood the terms of the license when they accepted it. If you can't abide by the terms, then you should be revoked.

I am not really a big fan of the rules double naught. Maybe if more ffl dealers would willfully violate them then they may get the picture.

Another thing about this particular case was that they were looking for trouble when they picked the gun shop over after the shooting. Everyone has jumped through hoops to villianize Ms. Lanza. All the way down to not including her as one of the victims of the Newtown shooting. It's sad that a human being was discarded like this because they were a gun owner.

What witch were they hunting in 2007?

"ATF inspections as early as 2007 found that:

• The store failed to "correctly and completely record” all of the required information on ATF 4473 forms, which are firearms transaction forms.

• The store failed to "properly maintain acquisition and disposition records as required, by entering incorrect serial numbers into the records,” and failed to submit reports of some handgun sales to the ATF.

The final Dec. 20 revocation notice listed more than 500 violations in all..."

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Virtually all stores doing any kind of volume have similar reports.
What does "fail to correctly and completely record all the required information" mean? If someone forgets to check that a Remington 700 is a rifle, that is a violation. If someone forgets to mark the date properly, that is a violation, even though the date is marked in two other places.
Other things are similar. If someone inadvertantly reverses two numbers on the serial number, that's a violation. If a buyer buys a handgun on Sept 30th and then comes back on Oct 4 and buys a different handgun from a different salesman and the store doesnt catch it to file the multiple sale report, that's a violation.
These would normally be termed "clerical errors" and no one thinks about it. But the ATF speaks a bizarre language that almost sounds like English. So there are no "minor errors" i their lexicon. It doesnt make a difference if you neglect to mark the county fo the buyer on the 4473 or you hand out guns to felons. They are the same violation.
This raid was done strictly to punish the store that had the misfortune to sell the gun to the legal buyer who happened to have a relative who became infamous. What kind of crime is that?

Regardless, if a shop sells a gun that is used (or misused) in a high profile case, "they" will get something on the owner or sales person. They will go over every piece of paper with a microscope, check every item in stock, and find some violation or error. Anything to punish the poor sap for selling that evil gun, and put him in jail or at least out of business.

Jim

I am not really a big fan of the rules double naught.

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LOL, doesn't matter if you are a fan of the rules or not. If you have an FFL and can't follow the rules/law, then you can lose your FFL. The gun shop knew that when they got their license.

The Seattle (IIRC) that last had the AR15 using in the DC Sniper incident also had multitudes of violations. Sorry, but such stores probably should have already had their FFLs revoked. They should not be allowed to repeatedly screw up. They understood the terms of the license when they accepted it. If you can't abide by the terms, then you should be revoked.

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I wonder what the founding fathers would think about that. They make a mistake that doesn't affect really anything and BAM! Their license is gone? I think it's just sad that you think that honestly.

my guess is that the publicity led to an audit of the stores records and the records were not in very good shape.

I am amazed at the poor record keeping of a lot of FFLs, especially considering that not keeping accurate record of firearms transactions is a federal crime.

Notice how fast they went after the IDIOT in charge of FAST AND FURIOUS, another police chief was killed according to the news in Mexico. Good going Holder!! Wonder if he filled out all the forms correctly

I don't see F&F as being relevant here to the Newtown gun shop or shooting.

"They make a mistake that doesn't affect really anything and BAM! Their license is gone?"

BAM? Did you read the part about audits as early as 2007 turning up multiple errors? If anything, the ATF gave the store the opportunity to change their ways for 5 or 6 years.

Did the store's owner think the ATF was kidding about them needing to do a better job of following the law?

How many shops out there have similar reports? The answer is almost all of them.

F&F being relevant or not doesn't matter. The gub walks and some minor paper mistake gets publicized forever---and punished to the full extent of the "justice" crowd. Now another has been killed with F&F arms.

BAM? Did you read the part about audits as early as 2007 turning up multiple errors? If anything, the ATF gave the store the opportunity to change their ways for 5 or 6 years.

Did the store's owner think the ATF was kidding about them needing to do a better job of following the law

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Did you not read how easy it is to make a mistake and how common and forgiving they are?

Did you not read how easy it is to make a mistake and how common and forgiving they are?

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They were forgiving for years and the store didn't mend its ways. There is no one to blame but the store and its employees.

Forgiving? How many years did the store have from from 2007 to 2012 to clean up their act? All it takes is one employee who can read and write to review the forms.

John

They were forgiving for years and the store didn't mend its ways. There is no one to blame but the store and its employees.

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So if the mistakes constituted a threat to public safety, why did ATF let it go on so long?
If they didnt constitute a threat to public safety, why were they shut down now?

fwiw, it is impossible to do this business at any volume for any length of time and not have violations.

You are correct Bubba. It's the same as the IRS. Anybody on this board could be pulled up for an audit and have multiple violations. The tax code is too complex. This is also no different then the traffic laws. Everybody violates them to an extent and could be cited at any time. All of this is in place to go after and hang anybody when the gov feels like it. It's our fault b/c we tolerate it. It's our fault b/c we cant get behind people in these situations and not allow them to be bullied.How many times have we heard about an FFL dealer that was charged with something and they put a defense fund in place and people contribute to it from gun boards and other orgs? Then after they have been financially tapped and run through the mill for several yrs they end up in a plea bargain. Everybody jumps up and screams "I knew they were guilty the whole time" or "I sent them my money and they were guilty". Well they werent, they just couldnt afford to be innocent. It happens to people everyday in our legal system.

These guys are no different. Anybody taking them to task over this is being silly. They had some violations in 07? OK, what about 08,09,10 and 11?So 5 yrs later they make a few more? OK, that understandable. If their paperwork had been a nightmare for the last 6 yrs they woukdnt be in business. Anybody siding with the gov in this case or any other similiar to it is in favor of the GCA of 1968 case closed.

Seriously...what you guys call serious violations and say the store had since 2007 to fix and you are ready to hang them...If you abbrevite ROAD as RD its a violation. If you write the date as 7/8/13 its a violation. If you abbreviate your.state name with the accepted standard (like OH for.Ohio) its a violation. I had an ffl make me.redo the.4473 because I used check marks in the boxes instead of.Xs and they said their inspector calls EACH check mark a violation because he wants Xs...despite the instructions that say "check the box.that applies". They started telling us to write N/A instead of leaving a box.blank because blanks were possibly misinterpreted and possibly violations.
These are "human errors" that dont fundamentally affect the process but ATF considers SERIOUS.
Its all bovine.excrement to make being an ffl as difficult.as possible.

ATF issued a clarfication on abbreviations, stating any recognized abbreviation was acceptable. Nonetheless when I put my birthplace as "N.Y.C." it was cited as a violation. I dont know where he thought NYC was or what place it might be confused with.
The rules change so constantly even the inspectors don't know. Ruger issued a statement saying the dash in their serial numbers was actually part of the serial number. I had a Charter Arms through the shop and they wanted to cite me because I didnt put the dash in the serial number.

If the ATF handled every case the same it would be different. Like Evan stated above, every "typo" is a violation. I'd bet the mortgage that a gun shop a few miles away can have the same amount of similar violations and it would not have been shut down. If the violations were major and continued for 5 years then the ATF dropped the ball. If they were consistent across the board it would be easier to police.

When the gun shop officially lost their license, the evening news (here in CT) had a story about how the gun shop that sold the evil rifle used in the killings has lost its license due to multiple violations. It was a "feel good" move to show the citizens of CT that they are on the ball! Yeah, they punished the evil gun shop for legally selling the mother a rifle. They got their revenge.

Then theres the imported guns that use foreign alphabets such as cyrillic letters in the serial number. Can't enter them right, Violation!! Is the revolver a s&w hand ejector or a military & police? Violation!! Is.that letter after the dash a date.code, assembly mark or part of the serial? Violation!! Is the caliber 38 s&w or 38 s&w special? Violation. Transpose two digits in a number? Violation!

". They had some violations in 07? OK, what about 08,09,10 and 11?So 5 yrs later they make a few more?"

Some? A few more?

No, between 2007 and 2012 they had over 500. Read the article yourself if you don't believe me.

Why didn't the ATF do something sooner? I dunno, ask them. They obviously didn't want to jerk the store's FFL for a few violations. Then a few became many. Over 500 worth of many.


"Transpose two digits in a number? Violation!"

Why wouldn't it be? It's not the serial number.

John

Who said serial number? Transpose two digits in the address...date...anything.

Point is that anything is a violation which in about any other field would just be corrected.

Who said serial number?

You did, in the first sentence of the paragraph.

"Then theres the imported guns that use foreign alphabets such as cyrillic letters in the serial number."


But if you insist, I will address the address. It's a government document subject to review/audit. You can't screw them up day after day, year after year and expect to be patted on the back. No doubt in my mind the store was told repeatedly to clean up their act. I suppose it was too much bother.

Point is that anything is a violation which in about any other field would just be corrected.

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In most other fields, it would not be a violation. If the folks at the gun shop can't do their job within the stipulations of the license, then they deserve to have their license pulled. They had ample opportunity to rectify the problem and not only didn't, but it got worse to the point of intentional falsification. The lack of supervision and verification is work is telling.