Took some "extremely left wing" friends to the gunrange today. . .

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want "extremely left wing" friends in the first place?

Hex, I'm pretty left wing on some issues.

As a case in point, my very anti-gun neighbors daughter (who is not an anti) approached me about going to the range and learning to shoot.

Win.

The militant all or nothing stance from the right edge is only succeeding in driving the center farther away. According to what I've read on this thread, if I want to own a gun I'm not allowed to support women's rights, school lunches, or social security.

Keep making the tent smaller and pretty soon somebody will fold it up while we're still in it.

According to what I've read on this thread, if I want to own a gun I'm not allowed to support women's rights, school lunches, or social security.

Click to expand...

I went back through the thread, and saw no mention of "women's rights, school lunches, or social security." So who's painting with a big brush here? I'm expecting this thread to get closed now. What began as a discussion about introducing some "antis" to shooting has turned into a left/right, liberal/conservative free for all. That is not THR.

What began as a discussion about introducing some "antis" to shooting has turned into a left/right, liberal/conservative free for all. That is not THR.

Click to expand...

Indeed it isn't, and some mighty distressing comments have been removed.

At THR we do NOT care about nor debate any issues outside of GUNS, SHOOTING, and RKBA.

Taking folks who are currently anti-gun, or who would 'naturally' lean toward that world-view, shooting is EXACTLY how we're winning the fight, one convert at a time!

Although I was never anti gun, I didn't become pro gun overnight. There was a time when I thought that guns were fun but I could have been convinced to join the more gun control side. It was only after I had looked deeper into the issue that guns became more than just an activity. So when you take a non-shooter to the range, don't expect them to immediately join the 2a crowd. If they ask questions typical of non shooters, be polite and have answers ready for them. We are planting a new seed that will take time to grow.

Taking non-shooters to the range should be done everywhere. Even in the states that have lots of gun owners in order to keep them that way.

If you get into a gun politics discussion, after a couple minutes you should gauge whether your input is having an effect. If they are clearly close minded and rabidly anti gun, then there's no point in continuing the conversation.

I'm sorry, but the 2nd amendment isn't about taking your leftist friends shooting so they can see how much fun it is. Either they "get it", or they don't.

HexHead said:

I'm sorry, but the 2nd amendment isn't about taking your leftist friends shooting so they can see how much fun it is. Either they "get it", or they don't.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is about taking people shooting so they can see how much fun it is. It is also about many other things as well.

As for "They either get it or they don't"....There are enough former non-gun owners and former anti gun people on this board to argue that.

The laziness of this kind of attitude, and the desire to create and maintain conflict instead of working to broaden the appeal of ones opinion, is dismaying to say the least.

I'm sorry, but the 2nd amendment isn't about taking your leftist friends shooting so they can see how much fun it is. Either they "get it", or they don't.

Click to expand...

Being comfortable around guns isn't "what the Second Amendment is about," but it IS a necessary precondition to supporting the Second Amendment, whether looking at it from (1) a personal defense angle, (2) a national defense angle, or (3) a check-on-tyranny angle. It is going to be very, very hard to find someone who has never touched a gun and is afraid of handling one who is going to be very supportive of Second Amendment rights for any one of those three issues. Not everyone who touches a gun will support the Second Amendment, but almost everyone who has never touched one will be unsupportive of the Second Amendment.

Dean1818 said:

We arent at war......

Anti gunners are not my enemy.


All I am saying, is win over 2-3 per year.

There are so many people that are indifferent when it comes to guns..... If they
See a national tragedy, and dont shoot....... They MAY start voting for anti gun polticians

If you are an avid shooter, or just enjoy the sport..... You will be much less inclined to vote for the anti gunner.

Its easy, this is a fun sport. Its like introducing someone to a new flavor of
Ice cream....... Its all good when its safe....

And...... More shooters , are more voters

Click to expand...

Actually, polls show most Americans are NOT anti gun. Recognize what's going on -- that there is a party of the Left with an agenda to disarm citizens. The only "policy disagreement" here between Liberals and Conservatives is, it seems to me, whether or not there is a US Constitution that means anything and is worth saving -- that's all. I will say this though...

Although I would love to go to the range with the most Conservative people I would not take the most "extreme right wing" people either though I'm less certain what that even means anymore because what we used to call "right wing" were really national socialists (vs. inter-national). Today it is used by the Left to charachterize anyone who doesn't agree with them ala Alinsky.

As for charging "laziness" and "creating conflict" if one DOESN'T teach "extreme left wingers" to shoot... I'm a firearms instructor and instructor training counselor and performed similar roles professionaly in uniform. You? Personalizing attacks, Silicosys4, is uninformed at best and not THR.

He may not be embraced by everyone here today but Jefferson said "every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle," and this is a healthy dialog IMO if people don't get mean and try to take it in propagandizing directions ala "women's rights, school lunches, and social security." Really!?

HexHead said:

Either they "get it", or they don't.

Click to expand...

Sorry, the world isn't that uncomplicated. Would be nice if it was, but it aint. People can be swayed and opinions can be changed. Enemies can be made into friends. Sometimes it's difficult but we must try.

Enemies are Enemies and the Ignorant are Ignorant

DeadFlies said:

...Enemies can be made into friends. Sometimes it's difficult but we must try.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

"Enemies" are enemies and, first, you'd better recognize them as such or you are committing suicide. "Trying" to change them by teaching them to shoot is baaad. Mmm kay?

The "uninformed" are not your enemies. They can be informed.

Don't presume your idealogical enemies are uninformed; "never underestimate your enemies" I think I heard someone say once. They are not you and don't think like you. "'Extememly left wing' friends" is an oxymoron. They hate and blame you Mr. Average American Gunowner. They want the power of the state and guns and believe you must be disarmed. You will not, cannot, change this -- they are idealogues. They are also a devious, vocal, small, minority. ...one we empower because we are too nice IMO.

Some of you here seem to overlook the reason the FFs put the 2nd into place. It's not about target shooting, hunting, personal defense or just opening your safe periodically to admire your collection. It's about keeping the government in check. Period.

This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us. They want an omnipotent central government to control all aspects of our lives. They are a larger threat to our way of life than the Taliban.

This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us

Click to expand...

No disagreement there, but some folks are "brainwashed" a bit and once we can expose them to the proper use of firearms, they tend to see things in a different light.

Al Thompson said:

No disagreement there, but some folks are "brainwashed" a bit and once we can expose them to the proper use of firearms, they tend to see things in a different light.

Click to expand...

Do you think they really make the jump from "gee, that was fun" to "Yes, we need the means to resist a tyrannical government"?

The government actions of late have made such a jump much easier.

HexHead said:

Do you think they really make the jump from "gee, that was fun" to "Yes, we need the means to resist a tyrannical government"?

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely, I have seen it, last night I had my very liberal friend discussing how N. Koreans would have a much better chance at taking back their country from the current dictatorship if they had access to firearms.

MattShlock said:

Recognize what's going on -- that there is a party of the Left with an agenda to disarm citizens.

Click to expand...

Whut?

By any reasonable metric, the two largest political parties in the US are both right wing authoritarian.

HexHead said:

Do you think they really make the jump from "gee, that was fun" to "Yes, we need the means to resist a tyrannical government"?

Click to expand...

The fact is we dont need them to take THAT jump.

If they were just given the opportunity to try shooting in a safe and fun atmosphere, a percentage
of them would start taking to the sport. More shooters, more votes for pro gun candidates, and less support for gun grabbers....... Its as simple as that.

There are many shooters left and right that just enjoy shooting. They dont need to be ready to join a militia or become a deep gun nut.

As a gun nut myself, In the VERY remote case my weapons will have to protect myself or family from individuals or tyrannical rule, so be it...... But that doesnt have to be the final goal of others.

Its my experience, that many non shooters are indifferent to gun ownership. They typically have never fired a weapon.

All I am saying is, where we can, let them try it, maybe on our dime......... Its the quickest way to convert them to not be an anti.

Guns are flying off the shelf, but according to some polls the number of gun owning homes is on the decline. Some of this comes from the huge growth of single parent homes where the son is sometimes raised like a daughter, where things of potential danger are squashed.

(maybe thats a message for "dads" to STAY in a marriage, vs changing wives like underwear........ Another time, another topic)

I do everything I can to take my kids and my kids friends to the range, as well as
their parent............ They always seem to have a great time, and I am asked to take them again.


Its just a step we as gun owners should be thinking of.

This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us.

Click to expand...

I disagree. The really "hard Left" -- by which I mean assorted domestic Communists, Black Panthers, etc. -- is not against guns per se. In fact they want free access to guns in order to further their revolutionary fantasies.

The gun control agenda actually comes from the "muddle-headed middle" -- suburban do-gooders who are swayed by the emotions of the moment.

Today's Democratic Party is not leftist, as measured on a global scale. It's centrist, perhaps slightly to the left of the Republican Party. To the extent its platform is anti-gun, that's because it's trying to appeal to those suburban Soccer Mom swing voters.

Since the anti-gun do-gooders (most of them, at least) are motivated by emotion magnified by ignorance, it might behoove our side to try to educate them. By all means take some ostensible anti-gunners to the range, if they're willing to go. You might be surprised.

"Enemies" are enemies and, first, you'd better recognize them as such or you are committing suicide. "Trying" to change them by teaching them to shoot is baaad. Mmm kay?

The "uninformed" are not your enemies. They can be informed.

Don't presume your idealogical enemies are uninformed; "never underestimate your enemies" I think I heard someone say once. They are not you and don't think like you. "'Extememly left wing' friends" is an oxymoron. They hate and blame you Mr. Average American Gunowner. They want the power of the state and guns and believe you must be disarmed.

Click to expand...

This is why the hard left wants so badly to disarm us. They want an omnipotent central government to control all aspects of our lives. They are a larger threat to our way of life than the Taliban.

Click to expand...

A lot of Americans of all political persuasions believe that people who disagree with them on specific issue must hate America, hate freedom, etc. This is dead wrong and it's a self-destructive way of thinking and talking, because it drives away people who may potentially be involved in the cause you care about instead of bringing others over to your views. Basically all Americans want the best for America, and they just disagree on what specific policy decisions will get us there.

Very few voters are one-issue voters. Don't assume that all people who vote Republican are pro-second-amendment or all people who vote Democrat are anti-second-amendment. I know at least one person who votes Republican for tax policy reasons but supports banning modern sporting rifles. I know several people who vote Democrat for gay rights or health care reasons but are staunchly opposed to such laws.

Battles over the second amendment and legislation affecting the RKBA will never be won by alienating everyone but the "one percenters." Legislative battles are won by changing people's minds and getting greater bipartisan support for your cause.

And people's minds can and do change. I'm pretty "left wing" on a number of issues. I'm not interested in debating health care policy or gay rights with anyone here, but just for the record, I'm a "left-winger." I'm also supportive of the second amendment. And no, I wasn't born that way. It's something that came with (1) gaining familiarity of firearms as an adult (people generally fear what they don't know) and (2) increasing frustration with federal surveillance and police powers from the USA Patriot Act to PRISM.

Don't believe me that there is anyone on the left side of the aisle who supports the Second Amendment? Take Anonymous, the hactivist group known for its left-wing stances on Occupy Wall Street and WikiLeaks. Here's their policy statement on Obama's gun policy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQo_IBkKNq8

The sooner you start realizing that not all "conservatives" are your friends when it comes to the RKBA and not all "liberals" or "left-wingers" are your enemy, the better.

AlexanderA said:

Today's Democratic Party is not leftist... To the extent its platform is anti-gun, that's because it's trying to appeal to those suburban Soccer Mom swing voters.

Click to expand...

Let me see if I understand what I think you are saying... That Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Boxer, Feinstein, McCarthy, Israel, etc. are really not anti-gun, these leaders of their party only exploit mass shootings, include gun-bans in their party platform, and push anti-gun legislation to get a few extra votes (when most people think we have enough gun laws on the books)?

If so, I'm not so sure that is a complete and accurate political perpsective. I am sure I won't be taking any of them to the range...

Let me see if I understand what I think you are saying... That Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Boxer, Feinstein, McCarthy, Israel, etc. are really not anti-gun, these leaders of their party only exploit mass shootings, include gun-bans in their party platform, and push anti-gun legislation to get a few extra votes (when most people think we have enough gun laws on the books)?

Click to expand...

Most of those politicians don't have any core beliefs. They say and do whatever they think will get them votes. (I'll grant you that Feinstein and McCarthy may -- may -- have ingrained antipathy to guns, given their personal experiences with gun violence. But they're old and won't be around much longer.) Due to polarization and gerrymandering, these politicians probably reflect the views of their constituents. As gun owners, we need to work on convincing the constituents, even in so-called antigun jurisdictions. Convince the people that you're right on the issue, and the politicians will follow along. Or they'll be replaced. It makes sense to expose as many people as possible to the positive aspects of guns. Remember one thing -- there are many, many more people that are passionate in favor of guns than are passionate against guns. Antigun sentiment in this country is a mile wide but only an inch deep. That's why antigun campaigns based on emotional reactions to unfortunate incidents always fade. Gun owners have a direct, vested interest; antigunners don't.

'16 would be a more accurate "start " but go back much, much farther for plenty of uprisings, rebellions, attempts to regain ones own country, etc...
Most of the ones I know, including several immediate family members are about as divided as Americans. Strictly speaking on guns that is.
Nice video by the way.
I took a cousin from Galway out a few times and it was all I could do to get him to give back the gun. An uncle on the otherhand wanted nothing to do withit. Started on about the troubles. Luckily he doesntvisit often.