Shotgun vs. AR15

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I keep the loaded AR next to the loaded 870 next to the loaded .357 lever carbine. They are a few steps from the sidearms.

choices choices.
 
I like the Shotgun for home defense. With that said, the AR is one of the most versatile firearm platforms available.

I seriously doubt PabloJ will stand downrange to see if the AR is just for useless noise and scaring people.

Hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions of people, starting with the Viet Cong and NVA to multiple groups in multiple present day hotspots and documented self defense use by law enforcement and civilians in the US and abroad, only made that mistake once.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
Dude.... Sometimes I read your posts and just over look them for whatever reason. Sometimes I read your posts and ask myself 'why are you here'?

Says pabloJ

"Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon."
 
Just some thoughts on it from me.

I started with a shotgun but i'd stick with 12 gauge. If your recoil shy and choosing the 20 over the 12 gauge you may want to go with the AR tho since it will be a ligher lower recoil platform. The S&W M&P is probably an ok AR but if your looking at spending close to $1k on a shotgun why not consider a Colt 6920 for the AR choice.

As far as ammo costs, ammo is expensive, good ammo is more expensive and practicing with what you intend to use and keep in the gun can become down right outragous. As far as the shotgun you wouldn't need to purchase any additional mags for it so that would be a bit cheaper there. For the AR platform you'll want more than just the mag that comes with the gun. If you do go with a 22lr kit for training with cheaper ammo there are several things to consider. The one I consider the most with any 22lr conversion for training is there is almost no recoil compared to the full caliber, to me managing recoil when firing when it counts will be very important. Most 223 barrels don't hold as good of accuracy with 22lr ammo so if markmanship is of concern you'd want a 22lr upper. Either way with a conversion bolt price range of 100-200 or so and a dedicated 22lr upper being in the 300-500 price range thats a good bit of 223 ammo you could buy for REAL practice. (for the price of a dedicated upper you should be able to pick up a case of ammo) Not to mention these will require additional different mags and 22lr isn't free nor nearly as cheap as it used to be.
 
Jojo, I've pondered some of those same thoughts myself. IF, I were to decide on an AR-15, I could raise the budget some. Something like a Colt 6920 or a nicer Smith & Wesson of equivalence. I however haven't given too much though to them, and the Sport's lower price helps make the case for an AR-15 a little more. But then you fall prey to buying extra p-mags, a good optic, sling and so on... I would not treat this gun like an erector set, but generally a fighting rifle requires a few more add-ons, verses what is typically seen on a shotgun.

I've also given thought to the .22lr upper, or even the S&W M&P15-22 rifle for practice. I CAN use a .22lr rifle at my local range, but like you said, recoil management is important. And we come back to the training & practice problem again...

Fortunately, if I were to go for a shotgun, I probably would choose the M2 American, or the Franchi Affinity. I know the comfortech stock is supposed to help, but I don't know if it will help $500 much... I can pickup the M2 American or the Affinity for roughly $750 new, so that closes the price gap considerably between shotgun and AR-15. Either will take magazine extensions, and both hover near the 6lb mark. That pretty light and handy - maybe lighter than even a modest dressed AR perhaps?

Also, my wife's gun is a 20ga. Me stepping down to a 20ga would allow us to share more ammo, instead of keeping stock of 12 ga and 20ga. And of course, I wouldn't have to beat up my Beretta either.

Just so I'm being forthright, I would like to have an AR-15 rifle too. But given the practice problem, I could buy A LOT of shotgun ammo for the cost of an AR-15, and then go use it up (practice) at several nearby ranges. If money weren't a problem, then sure I'd buy one too, and just make it a range toy. But for right now at least, thats just not possible.
 
JAshley73 said:
Jojo, I've pondered some of those same thoughts myself. IF, I were to decide on an AR-15, I could raise the budget some. Something like a Colt 6920 or a nicer Smith & Wesson of equivalence. I however haven't given too much though to them, and the Sport's lower price helps make the case for an AR-15 a little more. But then you fall prey to buying extra p-mags, a good optic, sling and so on... I would not treat this gun like an erector set, but generally a fighting rifle requires a few more add-ons, verses what is typically seen on a shotgun.

I've also given thought to the .22lr upper, or even the S&W M&P15-22 rifle for practice. I CAN use a .22lr rifle at my local range, but like you said, recoil management is important. And we come back to the training & practice problem again...

Fortunately, if I were to go for a shotgun, I probably would choose the M2 American, or the Franchi Affinity. I know the comfortech stock is supposed to help, but I don't know if it will help $500 much... I can pickup the M2 American or the Affinity for roughly $750 new, so that closes the price gap considerably between shotgun and AR-15. Either will take magazine extensions, and both hover near the 6lb mark. That pretty light and handy - maybe lighter than even a modest dressed AR perhaps?

Also, my wife's gun is a 20ga. Me stepping down to a 20ga would allow us to share more ammo, instead of keeping stock of 12 ga and 20ga. And of course, I wouldn't have to beat up my Beretta either.

Just so I'm being forthright, I would like to have an AR-15 rifle too. But given the practice problem, I could buy A LOT of shotgun ammo for the cost of an AR-15, and then go use it up (practice) at several nearby ranges. If money weren't a problem, then sure I'd buy one too, and just make it a range toy. But for right now at least, thats just not possible.
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With shotgun you can participate in sports that have healthy social component to them like skeet or trap which can really be fun and productive activity unlike trying to make smallest whole clusters with an AR15.
 
consider another idea: if your quarters are small and the longest shot you would have to take is 12 yards, why not a pistol? I have two AR's that are at the ready but they don't sit in my bedroom; they are for if I need to go clearing the upstairs or the outside. I have two pistols at the ready in strategic places in my house. I like the pistols better for moving through doorways and I can fire them one-handed if necessary while I open doors or grab things. I also have a shotgun, but it serves purely sporting purposes although I could use it for defense.

As others said, whatever you are going to practice with is the most important. If you do choose a pistol, try IDPA. If you go with a shotgun, try sporting clays. If you choose the AR, try taking a tactical carbine class.
 
PabloJ said:
With shotgun you can participate in sports that have healthy social component to them like skeet or trap which can really be fun and productive activity unlike trying to make smallest whole clusters with an AR15.
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Please, man, stop.

Just stop.









Please.















Stop.













Please.
 
Except for making noise at range and scaring people the .223 AR15 is basically worthless weapon.
I own one long gun and it's 6.8lb 3" 12ga pump shotgun (with thick Limbsaver pad). It can be used for HD, bird hunting, wildfowling, turkey hunting and larger game hunting with buckshot or slugs. My favorite HD load is 1&1/4 oz slug at Vo of 1020fps.
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So being that you only own one firearm, that being a pump 12ga, what are you basing your opinion of the AR on? And if that is you favorite HD load I feel sorry for the people that live anywhere near you. Or at very least I hope your walls are concrete... If you just don't like ARs that is fine, to each their own. There are many popular firearms that I do not care for, but to say that one or the other is worthless based on an emotional reaction or feeling is just silly.

With shotgun you can participate in sports that have healthy social component to them like skeet or trap which can really be fun and productive activity unlike trying to make smallest whole clusters with an AR15.
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You sir, could not be more wrong if you tried and I find your statement and insinuation to be more than a little insulting to the entire field of recreational and competitive AR shooters. I think an apology is in order.

I help run a monthly tactical rifle match here in the local area and I can say without hesitation that your statement is a slap in the face of all the outstanding individuals that attend the match every month. The insinuation that shooting an AR is somehow socially unhealthy is simply laughable, and rather sad. I have never in my life met a more helpful, friendly and generally amazing group of people than those that attend the match.

I have seen new shooters show up that have either brought too few mags, or too little ammo or maybe they have something break or go wrong. Every single time I have seen other shooters give me them mags, sometimes to keep, or ammo, or help troubleshoot and fix the issues. So to say that this is somehow an unhealthy social interaction is just dumb.

Now if this was posted to simply get a rise out of the other members, well that is trolling and we can have a chat about that in private.
 
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Your choice of a shotgun is interesting. I have an older M121 that it seems was built especially for me, as it is a perfect fit. Since I picked it up in a trade well over a decade ago (used), it has had thousands of shells put thru it ......and of all different types, so in short..... I would trust it as a reliable "home defense' weapon if the need ever came up.

As far as putting it up against an AR, that really comes down to what you like the best, and can train with on a regular basis.

An AR that will never see the light of day after you purchase it will be of less use for you vs a shotgun that you have trained with, and you are comfortable shooting it.

I would disagree with the poster that stated AR's are useless,( IMO..... he made that statement for the purposes of trolling).... but with your situation, the shotgun might be the better firearm to go with simply because your local ranges allow it to be used. More quality time behind the trigger of a shotgun trumps any rifle that ends up locked in a safe forever. Especially one that might be utilized for self defense.

IE......... an AR is far from useless, but in your situation, the shotgun would allow you more time to become proficient with it.
 
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I won't even bother with the worthless post, it's been covered.

For both options, the shotgun or the AR you may want to consider getting an Airsoft of similar form to the actual firearm that you purchase. With an Airsoft you can do shoot/move training. There are even leagues where you can compete against others.

There was a guy from Japan who made the Olympics in one of the shooting events who had to train with airsoft exclusively since Japan is so restrictive on firearms.

Be aware many locations treat Airsoft like actual firearms. For example in Fort Collins I cannot shoot an Airsoft gun in my back yard.
 
Like I said earlier, pistols are definitely part of the plan.

And honestly I'd like to have an AR-15 patterned rifle or similar at one point, but that maybe down the road a ways. As we've talked about before, I'd happy to concede that a rifle is a better offensive weapon, and in many situations might be a better defensive weapon too.

Someone mentioned airsoft earlier, and I've actually given thought to that too. Having a replicate "practice" gun could be useful in working on skills at home. But without the proper training with the ACTUAL weapon, messing with an airsoft would be just play time. If I decided to purchase and train with a rifle, airsoft might be a viable way to get some practice in... Ditto that for pistols as well.

I do appreciate everyone's comments and feedback though. Before posting, my thoughts as I'm sure most of you could tell, we're biased towards a defensive/all rounder' shotgun, for now at least. I wasn't completely convinced however, so it's nice to get some supportive input from like-minded folks.

That being said, anyone see anything wrong with a 20ga for a defensive/all rounder' shotgun? My biggest two reasons for wanting a 20ga are the weight and feel of the smaller/slimmer gun, and sharing ammo with the wife. The M2 is supposed to weigh in at 6lbs, and even with a full mag-tube and extension, I can imagine it would come in under the 7lb mark.

I'm trying to think about taking a class in the future with this gun too. I'm sure after a day or two of carrying and shooting, that a light gun would help help fight fatigue. I know with a sporting gun, weight helps reduce recoil, but I'm hoping a good-fitting gun with a good recoil pad shooting 7/8oz loads wouldn't be too bad. Can anyone speak from experience here?
 
That being said, anyone see anything wrong with a 20ga for a defensive/all rounder' shotgun?
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Several years back, I was a member of a hunting club that had dog drives for deer. A shotgun with buckshot was the required firearm. Several of our members used 20 ga shotguns with #2 or #3 buckshot with success.

One of my "go to" shotguns is a Remington 1100 20 gauge, 22 inch barrel, extended magazine. Very neat little shotgun.

Can anyone speak from experience here?
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Regardless of what you carry, you'll be tired at the end of the day. One of my friends wife did an Awerbuck class with a 12 ga and she's in her 60's, so it's not that bad. ;)
 
I'm trying to think about taking a class in the future with this gun too. I'm sure after a day or two of carrying and shooting, that a light gun would help help fight fatigue. I know with a sporting gun, weight helps reduce recoil, but I'm hoping a good-fitting gun with a good recoil pad shooting 7/8oz loads wouldn't be too bad. Can anyone speak from experience here?

A good solid sling, mounted so it doesn't interfere with the action of the shotgun, is the biggest thing in getting through a shotgun class comfortably in my experience. That and properly fitted boots :D.
 
As far as recoil, the weight of the guns will determine whether 20ga is easier to shoot or not. For similar guns the 20 ga is lighter and some of the benefit of the smaller shell is given up. Even so, the 20 ga should still have less recoil overall, it just may not be that much. Over a lot of shots even a little adds up.

My brother in law only has a 20 ga and one of my friends in HS shot a deer every single year with 20 ga slugs.
 
Yes to a civilian those are basically worthless
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*Double facepalm *

I don't know how many times you've seen on the news when a civilian defended their home with an AR15. Lets not forget hunting and competition purposes.

JAshley, it seems you are highly leaning towards the shotgun so why not go with that. If you can train with it more and afford the ammo/range time, that in your personal case it is the wiser choice. Although I would suggest to go with a 12ga instead of 20ga if you intend to use it for HD/SD also. 12ga practice ammo isn't that much more expensive at $6/box of 25rds (6Shot etc). But if you really want to stick with 20ga, that is fine.

Sure its great to have a nice milspec AR15 like the Colt6920. But I suggest getting the shotgun first, then save up later for the AR.

As a side comment, don't discount the M&P15 Sport. It is a great AR15 at the pricepoint. 1:9 barrel twist will serve you just fine, and it is still melonite-coated which nearly as good as chrome lining. If you are on a budget, I'd buy the Sport.
 
If you can only practice with the shotgun, get the shotgun. The AR has certain advantages, and it is quite effective, but a blast of 12g 00 Buck from 10ft.....the AR can't even compete with the kind of damage that will dish out. Just be aware that it will also penetrate like a pistol.
 
Brasso said:
If you can only practice with the shotgun, get the shotgun. The AR has certain advantages, and it is quite effective, but a blast of 12g 00 Buck from 10ft.....the AR can't even compete with the kind of damage that will dish out. Just be aware that it will also penetrate like a pistol.
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Incorrect.
 
Since I don't think anyone's suggested it in this thread, you should get one of these:

sopmodm4masterkey01ag1.jpg
 
Incorrect.
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Incorrect. Round for round, at close range, a 5.56 couldn't compete with a dose of 00 buck in a wet dream. If you believe otherwise that's fine. I just want to be sure who to ignore.

And yes, 00 buck will penetrate like a pistol round. Exactly what your drawing suggests.

Jeez, some AR guys getting a little touchy. I haven't suggested the 5.56 is in the least bit ineffective. But you guys act like I'm insulting your mother for suggesting any other round dare to compare itself with the mighty .223. I carry an AR on duty and it makes a much better weapon than a shotgun for that purpose. But to suggest it's more powerful at close range than 00buck is just silly.
 
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