Some questions for those that use .38 Spl/.38 Spl +P for personal protection.

Yep. Denim seems to be able to clog Gold Dots pretty consistently.

It also did not fare well on Brassfetcher's bone simulant test in terms of expansion:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special/38 Special Bone Test.pdf

DPX inched ahead as a winner in their test, but only barely.

Which is not to say that the test is validated or reflects performance in human targets - it is what it is.

I really like the Buffalo Bore rounds in .38, I just can't hit much with them in the 442.

May not work like you expect

DALE,

I believe the NYPD tried the +P semi wadcutter route when the were trying anyway to avoid using a hollow point bullet. This was because of the New York anti gun politics.

They found it did not improve upon the performance of the 158 grain round nose lead ammo. They ended up going to a 9m.m. hollow point. Considering the beauracratic and political hatred for hollow point ammo, it says alot about the performace of the semi wadcutters as a defense round.

Jim

1. Speer GDHPSB (Gold Dot Hollow Point Short Barrel)
2. +P
3. 135 grains, lead core hollowpoint plated/jacketed with copper
4. S&W 340PD
5. 1.875"
6. Advertised at 860 ft/s out of a 2" barrel.

1858,

Their is simply no substitute for testing ammunition out of your own guns that tou will using and/or carrying yourself as you are doing. In fact you are pretty advanced using ballistic gel although I think that test alone is far too limited.

Water is good test media as it is consistent and very cheap.

Shooting through several layers of cloth is a must as it is very likely a attacker will be dressed. Shooting through wood and drywall are not really relevant unless the attacker is hiding behind cover. Still it is fun and informative.

moxie said:

I also like the Rem. 125+P (Golden Saber) for the LCR. Second choice is the Speer 135+P short barrel.

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Yup: The same ones I use in my 4". Don't know what the chrono would say, but from the figures and effectiveness reports, I believe they are sufficient for the purpose.
Of course, I still like the Remington LSWCHP, whatever velocity it registers from either a 2" OR 4" barrel, and the Buffalo Bore standard .38 Special @~800 fps performs very well, too!

Old technology? Yes, but like a Timex watch, it just keeps on 'a tickin".

I have watched with great interest the YouTube tests, and some of the guys even seem to know what they are doing! Although I think denim testing is very instructive, and has been accepted by prestigious agencies...as an indicator!, it does not truly duplicate flesh and bone. A "Perfect mushroom" is nice, but hitting the target with whatever you have, if it is not a purse, rocks, pine cones or dirt clods seems more important.

So, when someone says "only a .38?", They speak from inexperience...imo.

The main thing is "gun control"...hitting where you aim, and aiming at the right spot, realizing that the "one shot stop" is an ideal, but not something you can count on 100% of the time. Generally, proper point of aim is, when combined with a good bullet, and sufficient practice.

It varies, for me, on what I am doing and where I am at the time.

My preferred load for many years has been the Speer Gold Dot 125gr standard pressure for use in my 642. I am just about out of my stash of that, however, and have not found it easy to locate these days.

My new stash for the 642 contains Federal Hydrashok 129gr +P, Winchester White Box semi-jacketed hollowpoint 125gr +P, and some heavy bullet handloads for when I'm in the woods but can't carry my S&W 13-3 3".

For the 13-3, I use any of the .38 hollowpoints as personal defense rounds, but I mostly carry it when hiking/hunting, and it gets loaded with some moderate .357 160gr wide, flat-nosed hard cast lead for most of that kind of activity. If I decide to take a rabbit with it, I switch out for a mild 125gr LRN .38 load that kicks a little bit more than a .22 Magnum out of the Kframe .357 Magnum.

I also have a 1930 model year M+P with a 4" barrel. Various members of my family have used it since I bought it for a self birthday present about ten or fifteen years ago. It has been carried with the 125 gr Gold Dots, 125gr +P, lead semi-wadcutters, and I'm sure in its 7 decades long life as a police service revolver, it got lots more lead loads than anything else through it.

I think I'll carry that one tomorrow when I go out in the desert. Just because.

>38spl with 141gr wadcutters, about 650fps. I can send 6 rounds very quickly and accurately. Almost no recovery time from recoil. Bullets cast from almost pure lead, very soft. I am not worried about leading with 6 rounds, practice ammo is much harder, but the same otherwise.
My choice is based on using what I practice with. I have shot thousands of these from the same gun.

Tony_the_tiger said:

Yep. Denim seems to be able to clog Gold Dots pretty consistently.

It also did not fare well on Brassfetcher's bone simulant test in terms of expansion:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special/38 Special Bone Test.pdf

DPX inched ahead as a winner in their test, but only barely.

Which is not to say that the test is validated or reflects performance in human targets - it is what it is.

Click to expand...

What did that test prove? Since when do men walk around with bone plates on the outside of their body just waiting to fill the HP of a bullet so it won't expand? Most of his tests and information are excellent, I just don't get this one...

I like the Speer .38 Special +P short barrel ammo and I also like the FBI Load depending upon which revolver I'm carrying.

I'll start the ball rolling on this one and say my own loads. Either a 158gr SWC-HP from hornady or a 158gr SWC cast from Missouri Bullet. The cast SWC is loaded in 357 cases over 14.5gr of Alliant 2400. The swaged 158gr SWC-HP is loaded over 6gr of Alliant Power Pistol in 38 cases.

1858 said:

If you use .38 Spl or .38 Spl +P for personal protection can you answer these questions.

1. Manufacturer and product
2. P or +P
3. Bullet weight and type
4. Firearm
5. Barrel length
6. Advertised and actual average muzzle velocity
7. Average penetration, expansion and weight retention in bare gel
8. Average penetration, expansion and weight retention in heavy clothing gel

I'm going to start by answering my own questions.

1. Remington Golden Saber Ultimate Defense for Compact Handguns
2. +P
3. 125gr BJHP
4. Ruger LCR
5. 1.875"
6. 975 fps (advertised) and 894 fps (actual, avg of six rounds)
7. 14.2", 1.6X, 100% (avg of six rounds)
8. 14.4", 1.6X, 100% (avg of five rounds)

Bottom line, I think this load is AWESOME out of a Ruger LCR/KLCR.

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I'll probably get bashed for this. I really like my 2" Taurus Poly Protector. Hornady 125 HPs. It's easy to conceal and easy & fun to shoot. Very accurate. I have about 12 different handguns, both semi auto and revolvers. All in 45ACP, 9mm, 38 special, +p, 357s, and 22s, oh yeah and a S&W 380 Bodyguard! Go figure, I kinda like guns. The Taurus gets a lot of bashing but I have them to be good reliable firearms and like the Poly Protector better than the LCR and fully shrouded Smith. Just my opinion. Give one of the light weight well made snubbies a try. None of my 2, 3, inch barrels shoot as well as the 4 and 6 inch revolvers accuracy wise, but that is most likely me as I tend to not be the worlds best shot at times.

a) In my S&W 642 snub, I use 135gr +P Gold Dots and 125gr +P Golden Sabers

b) In my 4" k-frame HD revolvers, I use Buffalo Bore FBI loads.

In my EDC Smith & Wesson Airweight .38 I have Speer Gold Dot +P's. In a house gun, a S&W M66 .357, I keep Rem. Golden Sabre +P .38's.

hovercat, I would consider that load WAY too slow to provide adequate penetration for defensive purposes. I don't have magnumitis, but a defensive cartridge has to have sufficient penetration, and I can't imagine that 650fps is ever gonna get that for you.

It might be a *little* slow for a soft pure lead bullet, but WC's make a big hole w/o expansion and generally penetrate very well.

What did that test prove? Since when do men walk around with bone plates on the outside of their body just waiting to fill the HP of a bullet so it won't expand? Most of his tests and information are excellent, I just don't get this one...

I like the Speer .38 Special +P short barrel ammo and I also like the FBI Load depending upon which revolver I'm carrying.

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I agree with you. Even tests using real bone are inconclusive given that living bone behaves differently than dried, dead bone. I also disagree with the placement of the simulation outside of the gelatin and not seated within the gelatin. That is why I noted that in my opinion the test is not validated. However, it is still interesting to see how the different bullets behave.

all357mag said:

Regular, 158gr HP's. +p's are a waste of money, fix to a non-existent problem! 4"barrel, six shot, Colt or S&W. Snubbies are a waste of money in any caliber. They do a disservice to any cartridge. Concealability is just as easy with 4"bbl as 2"bbl! Cylinder width is the issue with concealment, NOT bbl length!

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While I agree with you on the cylinder width vs bbl length. Unfortunately gun makers don't agree. The advantages of a "modern" poly DAO revolver al la LCR literally outweigh (pun intended) my love of a 3 or 4" barreled wheelgun

Are you listing ruger?

FBI load.
110 +P Cor-Bon
110 +P Hydra Shok
129 +P Hydra Shok
125 +P SJHP Remington

Concealability is just as easy with 4"bbl as 2"bbl!

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I like a big gun as much as the next guy but my Gp100 won't fit in my jammies. The 442, on the other hand...

You know, 4" is a compromise too. I really prefer about 18".

Bench racing for guns, LOL.

I spend less time worrying about what the "magic bullet" is and more time practicing putting the "might-not-be-magic-bullet" where it should go. A miss with the magic bullet is still a miss.

I'm restricted by policy to carry Gold Dots in all handguns I carry on L.E. credentials. So, I chose the .38 Gold Dot +p for short barrel to go in my off-duty/BUG LCR. A good hit with a round that may or may not expand is still better than a miss with anything else.

Regular, 158gr HP's. +p's are a waste of money, fix to a non-existent problem! 4"barrel, six shot, Colt or S&W. Snubbies are a waste of money in any caliber. They do a disservice to any cartridge. Concealability is just as easy with 4"bbl as 2"bbl! Cylinder width is the issue with concealment, NOT bbl length!

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No, it isnt as concealable. Not even close. I cant put a 4" barreled gun in the front pocket of my jeans. Not gonna happen.

As far as doing a disservice. Yeah, sure. We should all carry 500 mags.

My choice for a 38spl.+P factory load is the CorBon DPX 110gr.+P.

I believe it has the best combination of adequate expansion and penetration as well as tolerable recoil.

Water-Man said:

My choice for a 38spl.+P factory load is the CorBon DPX 110gr.+P.

I believe it has the best combination of adequate expansion and penetration as well as tolerable recoil.

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I am not a fan of light for caliber bullets in any cartridge. IMO if you're going to carry a 110gr bullet you might as well carry a 9mm. Then again I don't like the 115gr bullet in the 9mm and would choose a 124/125gr bullet for the 9mm.

For me the only reason to load such a light bullet in a .38 Special is to jack up the velocities and I feel there is way too much emphasis placed on bullet speed. Super high velocities are not needed with today's SD bullets which are designed and perform very well.