11 yo with a stun gun

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marley

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Ok, Something to get off my chest. I was out walking JC(the dog 91lbs black lab) tueday night down nine mile road. We were in front of a tow lot near the house. When i look to my left as i got in front of a van and there was a kid... i said (10 to 12) (cop said 11) with a stun gun making the zapping noise coming right for me.... there was another guy running right towards me too and then past out into traffic on nine mile... The kid with the stun gun stopped and ran inside the tow lot building and I called the cops. It seems that NO crime was committed according to the officer ( i was thinking brandishing a stun gun would be a crime) because the was a juvi on his property. I was dumbfounded. The kid almost got shot. I was a half second (perhaps two seconds away)away from drawing when the kid stopped and ran back the other way. I had NO idea what was going on.. and was more than a bit scared. Henrico police were less than helpful... I was told they were a good family... I have heard from other souces( other Henrico officers) that the kid is a punk and he has been an issue since he was 7. I am pretty sure the look that JC gave the kid is what turned the kid around. Oh and then the Henrico officer tried to give me crap about JC not being on a leash.. He said there is a leash law... and I corrected him and said NO the law says " verbal control" he said never mind... He knew he was wrong and was tring to put me on my heals... (the officer just wanted me to go away at that point and that was when I said fine but I will call someone else, and he asked who and I said you have supervisors)I wonder if the cop was the tow lots owners cousin or something. I was not pleased with how Henrico pd handled the situation and am still not. We live in a strange society when an 11 yo can have a stun gun and run at you and it not be a crime...... Sad times indeed The worst of it is that he almost got shot... I am pretty sure the dog looked at him and stopped him but he was already within 21 feet or so.. Thinking back on it I am pretty sure that they (the boy and the one that ran past me who was much older) were just playing around... I had walked on to the "field of play" they were just as surprised as I was. But when you hear stories of the " knock out game" you have to wonder. Just something to think about. Henrico co is near Richmond VA.
 
I'll come back and re-read this later. Some paragraphs might have helped me the first time.

But, if he was indeed on his own property, then it may well be true that no crime had been committed (yet.)

I think that I would make anyone on their private property, for the most part, have to come to whatever property on which I am before I decide they're "coming for me", and keep increasing the distance between them and me. This is assuming the weapon displayed is one like what you saw.

If you're anything like me, that kid did not "almost get shot." Several steps would precede firing a weapon in self-defense in that situation, as you have presented it.
 
I wasn't there, so I'll only offer up the obvious opinion that something has already gone sideways if an 11 year-old is running around with a stun gun.
 
i have no idea how an 11-yeard old can get a stun gun. i'm assuming you're talking about the normal kind of handheld stun device, and not a Taser.

but one thing needs to be emphasized. a stun gun is a non-lethal device. hence, you cannot SHOOT people just because they have a stun gun in your vicinity. I doubt that any jury would support such a shooting, and on top of that you wouldn't want something like that on your conscience anyway.

CA R
 
yes it was a stun gun not a tazer.



I was walking on a sidewalk on a main road. There was a tow lot that had parking spaces all the way up to that side walk. As i passed the van the kid was running towards me with that stungun. He was a lot closer than 21 feet at that moment. And closing. Did he almost get shot?... He did... I was making that choice as he stopped. And that stopped me from taking other actions. The street is busy and gaining distance would not have been possible without getting run over.


As to where the 11 got the stun gun...it's a tow lot...I am sure that every tow truck has one in it.. His parents run the two lot. It's sort of a second home to them.
 
If you almost shot a kid with a stun gun, even if he was brandishing it, you should rethink your ideas of what constitutes justifiable force. A stun gun is not particularly dangerous.

If you truly felt threatened, balling up your fists is a good first step, and if he actually attacks you, or moves to do so, you lay him out on his back. You do not shoot someone for threatening something that would only be painful.
 
For you gentlemen who think a stun gun or Taser is non-lethal, you are a little off, they are less-lethal. Think about some one with a pace maker, it would stand to reason that if shocked it could stop said person's heart.
Now as far as shooting a kid with a Taser, definatley not my first thought , I would try to not stick around the area and if he is approaching you issue some verbal commands. Remember shooting is a last resort.

As an after thought maybe you could start walking with a walking stick, it would give you some rang and the ability to strike with a less than lethal weapon of sorts. Or maybe some pepper spray.
 
With a contact 'weapon', brandished by a child, I'd have looked for a physical barrier (car, fence) to retreat behind, along with some specific verbal challenges.

Shooting him would have been a mistake in my view.


Larry
 
With a contact 'weapon', brandished by a child, I'd have looked for a physical barrier (car, fence) to retreat behind, along with some specific verbal challenges.

Shooting him would have been a mistake in my view.


Larry
Holster the gun, out comes the extendible baton :)
 
A stun-gun, even the contact-type, can certainly trigger (no pun intended) a lethal force response that would be justified in many jurisdictions. These are not simply pain-compliance devices; they can render one physically incapacitated, allowing the user to then pillage the twitching, urine-soaked victim, possibly then coming into possession of the victim's firearm if he's carrying one.

That being said, I stand by my assertion that, as the situation was depicted, verbal commands and self-extraction techniques would have likely been indicated before clearing leather. A hand sweep to one's holstered sidearm would not have been out of line, however.
 
I would have been worried as well, you are allowed to defend yourself.

It was hard for me to tell whether or not you did say you gave him a verbal warning as he was running in your direction though.
 
I'm picturing the scene in court when the prosecutor or later, the family's civil attorney, presents to the jury pictures of the 11 year old child you shot and killed.
 
It was a child with a stun gun. The fact that shooting him crossed your mind is frightening. I would much rather get hit with a stun gun than kill a child.
 
Dude at the academy I took a 72,000 volt stun gun and held it to my leg. It was no big deal. I was also shocked with a riot stun Shield and it hurt way more than the stun gun.

The stun gun was only 1.5amps anything above 3 amps and the heart stops.
 
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Posted by marley: ...there was a kid... with a stun gun making the zapping noise coming right for me....... The kid with the stun gun stopped and ran inside the tow lot building and I called the cops. It seems that NO crime was committed according to the officer ( i was thinking brandishing a stun gun would be a crime) because the was a juvi on his property. I was dumbfounded.
The determination of whether or not a crime had been committed, or whether or not there was sufficient evidence after the fact to proceed on the basis of a belief that a crime had been committed, is completely irrelevant to how a citizen should conduct himself.

The kid almost got shot.
I cannot imagine how one would put forth a defense of justification after shooting someone who had been making a "zapping noise" with something that is not considered a lethal weapon.

He was a lot closer than 21 feet at that moment. And closing.
Ah, the good old Tueller drill. Twenty one feet is an empirically determined distance that a person attacking with something like an edged weapon can cover in the time it takes to draw and fire a handgun.

Did he almost get shot?... He did...
It would not have ended well.

I was making that choice as he stopped. And that stopped me from taking other actions.
About the only lawful "other actions" that come to mind are (1) escape, (2) a warning, and (3) the use of non-deadly physical force, if safe retreat were not possible and if a warning proves insufficient.

The decision to not carry a less than lethal means of defense, such as pepper spray, can have serious consequences. I always have one in my pocket.
 
The figure is 100 to 200 milliamps is lethal (0.1 to 0.2 amps).......1.5 to 2 amps would stop your heart. If the person has a pacemaker the bet is off at any amperage.
 
Honestly, I can't believe you actually considered shooting the kid. There was absolutely no justification for that IMO even if he was coming at you with a stun gun. You have a firearm on your person, you need to be disciplined.

Carry mace or something, and if he actually kept coming you could spray him in the face.
 
Run. That is the answer.

When faced with a juvenile, an ambiguous scenario, a proximity "weapon", a less-lethal device capable of inflicting only contact pain, & a means of leaving the area...best practice seems to be: Retreat & shout a warning. If pursued, use the least amount of force to overcome a JV.

Do the math in your head...this will not read well in the paper & is your "life" really in any danger?
 
The figure is 100 to 200 milliamps is lethal (0.1 to 0.2 amps).......1.5 to 2 amps would stop your heart. If the person has a pacemaker the bet is off at any amperage.

Yeah,

Duh I posted that when I was half a sleep. I went back and read what I put on the amperege and chuckled. Thanks for the clarification. My point was stun guns are not that bad. They wont totally incapacitate you unless you just keep the current on em.
 
I can not see where a normal sized 11 year old would threaten you enough to even consider deadly force.The fact that you were close to shooting him makes a person wonder if you are level headed enough to carry a weapon. This is the kind of situation that the antigunners use as an example of abuse of the right to carry a weapon. Your post does not read good to even the most ardent pro 2nd amendment person. I am being respectful but I have to wonder what you were thinking.
 
11...let me think...

I was taller than many adults at that age, and had my skull cracked on a steel rail fence by a group of young adults on a Light Rail overpass, clotheslined off of my bike and beaten with a U-Lock by same age assailants. Thrown off of a balcony onto cement, attempted arson of my parent's house, (by kids who robbed the elderly lady on the corner)

2 of these lovely fellows are in jail in Washington state for addicting a 14 year old girl to meth, then repeadly raping her.

Now, as someone who endures lifelong injuries, complicated by a genetic inability to properly heal, I would still have a hard time drawing and firing on anyone smaller than myself.

Then you read the local news.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/01/11-year-old_portland_boy_accus.html

"An 11-year-old boy was arraigned in juvenile court Friday afternoon, accused of threatening a woman on a TriMet MAX train with a loaded gun after bumping into her baby's stroller."

Here's a different young lad.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/03/portland_boy_pleads_guilty_to.html

"An 11-year-old boy accused of trying to carjack and rob a woman at gunpoint in Southeast Portland last December has pleaded guilty in juvenile court to first-degree robbery and will face probation."

Things like this aren't new compared to growing up in the early '80s. Just better documented.

I walk with a 7 lb steel reinforced cane, and carry a 1m volt stun-pen in addition to the pistol(s) , but I'm under no illusions as to the capability of even the very young. A gun levels the playing field in both directions.

Monsters are Real, but in fighting them we need to avoid becoming them ourselves.
 
While the age of the person would certainly become an issue in a prosecutor's opening and closing arguments in a trial,and might well influence the jury, let's not get too wrapped up in it. Had the armed citizen shot the person, the underlying issue of justification would be the same no matter what the age of the victim might be.

We have someone approaching an armed citizen with what the armed citizen recognized as a stun gun. A stun gun is not considered to be a lethal weapon.

How the defender would ever convince the triers of fact that the individual with the stun gun had had the ability, the opportunity, and the intent to cause death or great bodily harm, and that the defender had had no alternative to the use of deadly force, is by no means clear, based on what has been described.

And if the description is accurate, anyone with a mindset of "he almost got shot" really has some thinking and learning to do before venturing out with a firearm again.
 
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