IL - 1000s Won't be Able to Apply For Concealed Carry License

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I don't know who is doing the payment processing, specifically, but they're charging a $3 and some change surcharge to the licensing fee to process your payment!

From my credit card online statement when I submitted my app and paid:

12/18/13 12/18/13 ISP CONCEALED CARRY IN SPRINGFIELD IL
<REFERENCE {redacted}>
$150.00
12/18/13 12/18/13 IL ISP FORTE*SERVICE F SPRINGFIELD IL
<REFERENCE {redacted}>
$3.53
 
(I question the legality of that surcharge, as the $150 Licensing fee should be inclusive of any processing fees)

The law doesn't say "$150 plus whatever reasonable additional fees the state police decide to charge."
 
wildbilll said:
At some point there will be a way to tell what the actual costs are to produce a permit. This is the point where the state will be shown to be profiting off of the backs of those trying to exercise their civil rights. The fact that they are taking money from these people to pay for other programs will be held unconstitutional. In court, the argument that they have to charge these fees to make sure we are legally able to safely carry a firearm concealed won't fly when they are shown to be doing other things with the money.
They are gouging. They know it. Poll tax.
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Has there ever been a federal court case that says it is unconstitutional to charge a license fee that exceeds the cost of the license?

In any case, the courts have struck down poll taxes entirely, even where it only covered the cost of administering elections.
 
Wow, I bet if people had to do this to vote, the libs would be crying racism and how unfair it is! :uhoh:

While this concealed carry is better than nothing, I hope the ISRA and NRA will fight all the BS in court with the 16 hours training and psych eval BS.
 
So the leading case that challenged exorbitant fees was Kwong v Bloomberg

Kwong lost at the CA2 because IMO, the court both applied Rational Basis and failed to properly consider the Equal Protection aspects of the case.

The plaintiff just got an extension to appeal to the Supreme Court.

But I'm not optimistic now, I though Woollard was very disappointing.
 
ilbob said:
Has there ever been a federal court case that says it is unconstitutional to charge a license fee that exceeds the cost of the license?

In any case, the courts have struck down poll taxes entirely, even where it only covered the cost of administering elections.
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No court case that I am aware of - yet. Note that the terms "tax" and "fee", while we view them as really the same thing, have a distinction legally. It's one thing to tax something. It's quite another to charge a fee for a service, then use the fee from the service to fund something else.
So we have them in a corner. They can't call it a tax, because taxing a right gets us to the poll tax argument. We have voter registration, we have registration cards. They do not dare charge for that.
They call it a fee, then we find that they are actually charging more than it takes to provide the service, they are actually using these monies to pay for other programs, effectively taxing our rights to pay for their pet projects.
This is the type of argument that will come as the issue coalesces.
Soon I hope.

http://www.guns.com/2013/03/15/chicago-gun-shops-sue-cook-county-over-25-firearm-tax/
 
1. This isn't the 1980's...computers are everywhere, even if you don't own one. Public librarys have them free for use.

2. Anybody who would be able to spend the kind of money it takes to own and shoot a firearm should be able to at least buy a low-end computer that will do everything they reasonably need at an affordable price, comparatively speaking. A used laptop with WiFi can be used at any free hotspot.

3. You don't need a "real" credit card nowadays. Drop into any corner drug store, or nearly any other store, and buy a VISA gift card. Works just like a real credit/debit card. And PayPal can be linked to a bank account as well as a credit card.
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1) That's not a valid assumption. "everywhere" is actually out of reach for some in any practical sense.

2) That's not always the case either. A $250 revolver + the $400 price of a low end computer is about three times what some working poor can afford. You're also suggesting that a citizen should have to pay hundreds of additional dollars on top of the burdensome fee to avail themselves of a carry permit. WiFi might nearly be ubiquitous, but it isn't quite in every community (since Starbucks isn't in every community, all appearances to the contrary aside).

3)There are communities that don't even have a WalMart and the local Piggly Wigley is what people drive to when they "go to town".

There really are places where you can't do what's being assumed as easily done. I travel to various locations for work where I actually find these "normal" services don't yet exist outside of the best hotel in the area. Rural, remote, or poor communities don't always have these. Heck, my SIL thought she was in the lap of luxury when she switched to dialup to a cell phone hotspot and her husband who was the produce manager for the local Piggly Wiggly was second only to the GM at the store for prestige positions outside the minister and the local public health nurse (his wife). Even well off individuals have to resort to satellite internet connections in a surprising number of places (and that ain't cheap). A good friend of mine is in that position. OTOH, any local LE could allow this for anyone with the skill and knowledge to do it, but they're not going to be able to afford a kiosk for public access nor are they going to let a citizen walk in and use one of their computers if the local library doesn't have it. Paper forms are going to be needed and checks or cash are going to have to be taken to serve those people and communities that literally don't have the means to use a paperless system.
 
hso said:
1) That's not a valid assumption. "everywhere" is actually out of reach for some in any practical sense.

2) That's not always the case either. A $250 revolver + the $400 price of a low end computer is about three times what some working poor can afford. You're also suggesting that a citizen should have to pay hundreds of additional dollars on top of the burdensome fee to avail themselves of a carry permit. WiFi might nearly be ubiquitous, but it isn't quite in every community (since Starbucks isn't in every community, all appearances to the contrary aside).

3)There are communities that don't even have a WalMart and the local Piggly Wigley is what people drive to when they "go to town".

There really are places where you can't do what's being assumed as easily done. I travel to various locations for work where I actually find these "normal" services don't yet exist outside of the best hotel in the area. Rural, remote, or poor communities don't always have these. Heck, my SIL thought she was in the lap of luxury when she switched to dialup to a cell phone hotspot and her husband who was the produce manager for the local Piggly Wiggly was second only to the GM at the store for prestige positions outside the minister and the local public health nurse (his wife). Even well off individuals have to resort to satellite internet connections in a surprising number of places (and that ain't cheap). A good friend of mine is in that position. OTOH, any local LE could allow this for anyone with the skill and knowledge to do it, but they're not going to be able to afford a kiosk for public access nor are they going to let a citizen walk in and use one of their computers if the local library doesn't have it. Paper forms are going to be needed and checks or cash are going to have to be taken to serve those people and communities that literally don't have the means to use a paperless system.
Click to expand...

1. bingo

2. bingo

3. and BINGO!!

I live 25 miles round trip from the nearest WM or any other store... 35 miles round trip from most other stores. A few folks here in my rural area have no transportation and are very poor. Should they be "effectively" denied to right to SD? That stated, people here are far less isolated than many others. Internet connectivity is pricey here (for many to afford). I paid $500+ just for the privilege of paying another $55 per month (internet only)... and I have an ugly 50 foot mast above my home to prove it. There is no cable here.

Assumptions are the product of ignorance and closed-mindedness.
 
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Heh, ya know, I have no idea why the people on the South Side of Chicago and other low income folks don't go nuts over this kind of garbage. Sure, Internet can be accessed at your local library, but an individual needs to come up with about $500 and a NON "Saturday Night Special" to be able to defend themselves outside of their home 'cause IL has "low melting point" laws.

Yes, it is about $700 to CC in IL. $150 for the resident license, $200 to $250 for the 2 day training, another $100 for ammo (200 rounds for class - yes, this is what most classes require), and finally $200 for a Hi Point or above (if you're lucky). Makes a person wonder why no activists for the poor and downtrodden are voicing any concern.

$700 isn't a lot of money, right? I mean a decent pistol is what? Only $500 to $1000? A decent dinner is what - $200-$300? However, look at it from the perspective of someone making $30K a year and trying to make rent every month. Or the college kid trying to go to school and pay the rent by working the late shift at some place or another. How about the retired person on a fixed income? Heh, anyone here who argues that IL has a good CC law need to get their facts straight - even if it is just from a financial perspective. :mad:
 
Couldn't agree more, Onward.

I'm blessed with a healthy income but even so, the money I pay for all of this stuff comes out of the same pool of money I could spend on my kids for clothes, or activities to make their lives better.

How many children will go without so their parents can get the "right" to protect them?

Do you see a single working mother of two, being able to afford this? She's already working two jobs to be able to make ends meet. If she "splurges" to gain the right to defend herself her kids will be going without clothes, or the car without repairs, or the landlord without rent...

Median *family* income in my home town, down state, is right at $33,500, for a family of 4 (according to US census bureau).

Try to budget a license and gun and training and ammo in to that. And still feed your kids.

Carrying a gun shouldn't be a privilege reserved for the wealthy, or the well-off, or the stag bachelor making 50k a year on some skilled labor job.

It needs to take in to account single mothers. Old folks on social security. And so on.

Hell, most of our local restaurants have senior discounts. Our gun club has senior discounts (membership is $10 a year instead of $80). And so on, and so forth. Those people have contributed and worked their entire lives to our society and we should take care of them when they get to an age they can't haul lumber out of a forest, or weld metal together 12 hours a day, or work in the fields from sunrise to sunset.

And don't even get me started on the gun free zones. Because then I'll get real angry.
 
Onward Allusion said:
Heh, ya know, I have no idea why the people on the South Side of Chicago and other low income folks don't go nuts over this kind of garbage. Sure, Internet can be accessed at your local library, but an individual needs to come up with about $500 and a NON "Saturday Night Special" to be able to defend themselves outside of their home 'cause IL has "low melting point" laws.

Yes, it is about $700 to CC in IL. $150 for the resident license, $200 to $250 for the 2 day training, another $100 for ammo (200 rounds for class - yes, this is what most classes require), and finally $200 for a Hi Point or above (if you're lucky). Makes a person wonder why no activists for the poor and downtrodden are voicing any concern.

$700 isn't a lot of money, right? I mean a decent pistol is what? Only $500 to $1000? A decent dinner is what - $200-$300? However, look at it from the perspective of someone making $30K a year and trying to make rent every month. Or the college kid trying to go to school and pay the rent by working the late shift at some place or another. How about the retired person on a fixed income? Heh, anyone here who argues that IL has a good CC law need to get their facts straight - even if it is just from a financial perspective. :mad:
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Think that's challenging? I worked for Uncle Sam for nearly a quarter century and had to medically retire less than two years bore my "minimum". So now I live on $22K per year. I ended as a GS-9. Thank God I eliminated my debts, though I had to decimate my 401K to do it, before I could no longer work.
 
ilbob said:
the court did not decide in that case that it was unconstitutional to charge more for a license than it costs to administer the license.

there are a lot of business and other licenses (think license plates for your car) that are primarily revenue oriented.
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License plates for your car are not something that is mentioned in the Bill of Rights.
 
To those of you who have suggeste using a public library's computers, they are free ONLY to those that live inside the city limits and pay property taxes in that municipality.

There MAY be some "county" level libraries but I don't know of any in the area just east of St. Louis, MO.
 
the court did not decide in that case that it was unconstitutional to charge more for a license than it costs to administer the license.
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The problem with tying a permit or license fee to actual costs is that government is notoriously inefficient, wasteful and expensive. Anti-gun politicians could (for example) create a website for gun owners to digitally register their firearms that ends up costing $600 million to create.

After they pass those costs on to gun owners, all they would have to do to win a lawsuit challenging it would be to show their receipts, if the case were evaluated based on "rational basis".

Does anyone know how much it costs the government to run an election?

Even with volunteers there are costs. but it gets passed on to ALL tax payers, whether they vote or not, as a general expense, in whatever means the governing body in question raises revenue. Charging a fee to voters was tired a long time ago. Then the U.S. ratified the 24th Amendment, and then the use of a poll tax was ended by a string of cases which cited violations to the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

The analogy of permit fees to a poll tax is not a perfect analogy, but permit fees do create barriers to the exercise of an enumerated right.

Activist judges ignore the law and jerrymander their decision in order to shape society the way they think society should be shaped. But for judges who simply follow the law, they are going to have to admit someday that these permitting fees constitute a prior restraint.


.
 
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JTHunter said:
To those of you who have suggeste using a public library's computers, they are free ONLY to those that live inside the city limits and pay property taxes in that municipality.

There MAY be some "county" level libraries but I don't know of any in the area just east of St. Louis, MO.
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It is a moot point. The ISP has agreed to come up with some kind of way to apply on paper that will become available this summer.
 
C0untZer0 said:
The problem with tying a permit or license fee to actual costs is that government is notoriously inefficient, wasteful and expensive. Anti-gun politicians could (for example) create a website for gun owners to digitally register their firearms that ends up costing $600 million to create.

After they pass those costs on to gun owners, all they would have to do to win a lawsuit challenging it would be to show their receipts, if the case were evaluated based on "rational basis".

Does anyone know how much it costs the government to run an election?

Even with volunteers there are costs. but it gets passed on to ALL tax payers, whether they vote or not, as a general expense, in whatever means the governing body in question raises revenue. Charging a fee to voters was tired a long time ago. Then the U.S. ratified the 24th Amendment, and then the use of a poll tax was ended by a string of cases which cited violations to the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

The analogy of permit fees to a poll tax is not a perfect analogy, but permit fees do create barriers to the exercise of an enumerated right.

Activist judges ignore the law and jerrymander their decision in order to shape society the way they think society should be shaped. But for judges who simply follow the law, they are going to have to admit someday that these permitting fees constitute a prior restraint.


.
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In your example of a $600 million dollar website, all I can say is that, if the website was required to run the program, then it wouldn't be the same issue as overcharging for a permits because the money is being diverted to some other unrelated program.
The fee structure is a Christmas tree that all of the politically corrupt hung their ornaments on in order to get them to vote for it.
It is a burdensome requirement that goes far beyond what is needed to put a permit in someone's hand.
 
In the past, laws have been written to accommodate the lowest common denominator in society. That is, folks who are illiterate (whether computer or plain book) have to be protected by those laws. Literacy is no requirement to vote, or otherwise maintain citizenship.

For the same reasons analog telephone lines are in existence, and will be in the immediate, if not intermediate, future, paper forms will still be a fact of life.

There are any number of states which have been sued in Federal courts for making things too difficult for some folks. And, I would imagine that some enterprising attorney (or ACLU-type) will pick up the ball and run with it.
 
I work on the west side of Chicago and interact with people who: may be Medicaid recipients, some are unable to read English, many make minimum wage. These are the ones who work food service or in hospitals second shift, get off work at 11:30pm and take the bus home thru rough neighborhoods. If you tell them to: get the fee, find a computer and scanner, submit info, then wait and finally purchase a weapon, 95% will get up and leave.
If I told you you had to jump thru these hoops to: vote, to hold a political rally, to voice opinions, to obtain govt ID, there would be a riot.
This is an attempt to make it as difficult as possible to apply. I see classist overtones here, a Lawyer living in the Loop no problem, a Hispanic working man in Humbolt park, or a food service worker from Englewood, FORGETABOUTIT!
 
One could argue both TC and FL are more intrusive as both require fingerprinting while IL does not.
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Oh, yes, they do. But will only accept electronic scans. Which cost $40-$60 on average so add that to the costs and your well into $600 for your CCW.

Now, change the word "Carry" to the word "Voting" and you'd hear an unending hue and cry from the left.


My father does not use a computer, has never used one, and isn't going to learn now. There needs to be a way for people without computers (forget the library argument) to fill out the form, make copies of the necessary documents, write a check and mail it in. LIKE WITH EVERY OTHER .GOV APPLICATION.
 
Illinois doesn't require fingerprints, but if you don't submit prints there will be an additional delay in processing your application.

We're already talking about 90 days to get a CCL with no substantial penalties for not making that 60 day target. I don't think there are any deadlines for the time it takes to process an application that doesn't have fingerprints so that could be anything from an additional 30 -45 days to an additional 180 days - who knows.
 
Yes, it is "up to 90 days" with prints and "up to 120" days without prints.
The track record so far, based on the FOID delays, doesn't look good. There are no teeth in the law, just like with the FOID law, so they can delay and blame it on the overwhelming demand with a assurance that someday in the future they will catch up.
The flip side to this is that the application process is electronic, as opposed to the FOID. Add to that the fact that you must have a FOID to apply for the FCCL and this means that most of the background check work is done before you even apply.
I can't figure out what database they will check that they don't already check for the FOID. And they claim they run all FOID names every day against those databases.
It could be that the submission of prints slows down the process, since that means they must get a response from the operator of that database before they can proceed on the issuance of the FCCL.
 
According to the statute it is 90 days with fingerprints and a possible additional 30 days for a manual background check if you don't submit fingerprints.

There are already thousands of application partially filled out that will be completed within minutes on Jan 5th. I think the ISP is going to have a deluge of applications to work through, and I think applications without fingerprints will probably go to the bottom of the pile - just my opinion.

By the time the ISP issues paper-based forms, there will already be a HUGE backlog of CCL application to work through, so for people who submit a paper form, not only will they have undergone a 7-month or so delay, they will then have the additional delay of going to the end of a very long line of people waiting for their CCL.
 
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