why no love for the HK93?

MJ said:

So many wrong experts.

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Was that the brass you found after a day at the range?

"So many wrong experts"

I was going to point that out, but my experience is peripheral to 5.56mm HK products. I've never reloaded 5.56mm shot thru any, but I've reloaded thousands of pieces of brass shot thru HK-91's (7.62mm) and never had a problem. Tumble and resize. No worries. Now and then you get a reload with a small dimple where the case was smacked against the receiver in ejection that does not iron our when resized, but they fire form out in the next shooting and always fed. The striations on the forward portion of the case never affected a thing. I kept my HK brass segregated and never "deliberately" went to the range with it when shooting other 7.62 MM rifles, but if there was some ammo left over and I happened to have another rifle along, I shot it thru them too. Never had a problem with any of it.

My very first EBR was a HK-91, and when you only have one rifle and shoot it a lot, you get used to it's quirks. I could never afford factory ammo (even surplus) at that time in my life, so reloading was the only real option. HK reloading is a no-brainer. Just treat it like any other brass. I did stick a ejection port buffer on the thing eventually and it helped the brass a bit, but even before then it was fully reloadable.


Willie

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Has anyone that owns the rifle fired steel cased ammo in it? Curious to see if the soft steel would expand enough to seal and then float out of the chamber on ejection. I do not understand why someone would want to reload for that rifle. They are not tack drivers anyway. You can just set up at the right end of the shooting benches so empties would not hit anyone and create all that drama if you feel the need to pick up brass

Quote 68wj~Was that the brass you found after a day at the range?

Yeah that's it.



.......MJ.......

No love for H&K because H&K hates us.

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Please elaborate with all of your expert knowledge of how HK hates the US market for us please. I'll be waiting for your expert response.

"So many wrong experts"

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Not experts at all, just professional forum regurgitation machines.

GASP my HK91 brass reloads just dandy too.

What's not to like?

If you think the H&K platforms mangle cheap 223 and 308 brass, you'd really cry if you saw what the Yugoslavian M76 8mm rifle does to your precious reloadable 8mm brass. Or, even worse, shoot that same brass through an MG34 belt fed on a concrete slab. I've seen brass run over by pickup trucks less mangled.

I have to use pliers to re-round the case mouths each time, and the shoulders are flattened. The shoulders are the worse problem. A dented or flattened shoulder can cause a jam when it feeds off the magazine. No easy way to "fix" that. I set dented shoulders (regardless of caliber or platform) aside for "plinking ammo" to reduce the risk of getting a jam during a competition.

FYI the H&K series rifle brass mangling issue can be 100% resolved by taking 30 cal cleaning patches, stacking them, and duct-taping them to the right side of the rifle rear of the ejection port. I use a couple layers of GOOD black-colored duct tape so it has some resiliency. The cotton cleaning patches create a padding, and the rounds don't get dented. Just look on the receiver for the brass "moon shaped" marks where brass has been impacting to locate where it should go.

The side benefit of this is brass doesn't eject quite as FAR from the rifle, and with a little less .. "vigor".. which is nice considering the G3 shoots brass out fast enough to dent a truck fender, or make the guy next to you REALLY not like you. (It'll break the skin if it hits mouth-first).

I bought a buffer to put on the rifle partially covering the ejection port. It did not interfere with the operation of the rifle, and my brass stayed within 10 feet of me.

Trent,

Thanks for the duct/duck tape fix......always looking for another use for the stuff that holds the universe together.

Never shoot a Bren Gun with the gas port regulator fully open over a steel truck tailgate using that softish British boxer that came in in the 1990s. I did not notice until after the second magazine and it was awful. Buddy's gun and he was too lazy to start out on the lowest setting and work up so he just had it cranked open........ I got mangled and crushed case mouths.... he got a stern talking to.

HK case dings are a mater of opinion, as I wrote earlier I reloaded most but some were just sharp enough I did not want to trust them not rupturing. Others seem to have had good luck with them but if I saw a hard bend and moved brass the cases went in the trash. Most, dispite the ejection ding, went into the case tumbler for a visit to the reloading bench.

-kBob

Thinking about using used HK brass reminded me of "Hollywoods"

This story is for historical purposes only and the stupidity in it should not be duplicated as it was dangerous to health and equipment.

Do Not Do This Yourself. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME (or anyplace else)

Sometimes my Infantry unit used training areas not used by other US or NATO units other than the West Germans. There was always plenty of spent green plastic blanks, most shot from specially out fitted MG-1 through MG-3 guns but some from G3s. These where full sized green plastic cartridges with a "bullet" permanently attached that had a little cross shaped imprint on the nose that blew out. The base of the case was brass and the plastic case body and bullet were pressed over the brass base.

We would cut off the plastic and take the base and cut it off with out hacksaw (my squad carried a few tools including one of those little handle with a hacksaw blade on it deals... I generally carried a cresent wrench or vise grips) to about the size of the base of a cartridge head. We then removed the flash suppressor of an M-16A1 (see I had a use for the cresent wrench) and dropped the brass cartridge base into the back of the flash hider with the primer facing out and cranked the flash suppressor back on It went far enough to compress the lock ring so the flash hiders never backed off for us. One then pointed the rifle at the soft ground and nothing else and fired a round of blank and the primer blew out. After wards the primer flash hole provided enough of a bore constriction to allow the rifle to function with blanks with no visible blank firing device.

I in no way recommend doing this and wonder how much damage we did to Uncle Sugar's M-16A1s.

We called them Hollywoods because they had no visible Blank Firing Attachment and so seemed to be firing ball ammo like a good movie maker's rifles. On more than one occasion while aggressing for other units we heard folks scream "They're firing live ammo!" before the other guys ran away.

Anyway it was one way to reuse spent plastic blank ammo that had been fired in an HK.........

Don't do it yourself. Do not try this at home. It was stupid and dangerous.

-kBob

kBob said:

Trent,

Thanks for the duct/duck tape fix......always looking for another use for the stuff that holds the universe together.

HK case dings are a mater of opinion, as I wrote earlier I reloaded most but some were just sharp enough I did not want to trust them not rupturing. Others seem to have had good luck with them but if I saw a hard bend and moved brass the cases went in the trash. Most, dispite the ejection ding, went into the case tumbler for a visit to the reloading bench.

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Yeah I can't speak for the H&K 93 personally. I've shot some full auto 223 H&K's at knob creeck, including a 53 and a SAW, but didn't inspect the brass afterwards. (Unfortunately all I could accomplish for the next 15 minutes was giggle and smile uncontrollably...)

I own an FA91 (aluminum receiver built 91, it sort of sucks, the barrel they used was shot out when the kit it was built on was imported so it shoots about 10" groups at 100 yards, replacing the barrel assy on those is non-trivial). It mangles brass horrible.

I own a CETME (same design), great build by Century (I don't say that often), and it also mangles brass with much attitude.

I own an SL-8 (my only 223 H&K design) and it's VERY gentle on brass. It's somewhat ugly and blocky and doesn't feel comfortable, and the 10 round capacity sucks (not forking over the money for a STANAG mag conversion), but it's *exceptionally* well balanced and shoots extremely accurately. I used it in a sporting rifle match this year and took 1st.

If the HK93's (or other H&K 223 rifles which take STANAG) hit the market at anywhere near $2k, it'll be high on my want list simply due to the balance and the accuracy I've got on that SL-8.

I'm more prone to bashing gun designs than I am praising them - I like to complain about things - but that SL-8 really won my heart. I didn't *WANT* it too. I let it gather dust for 6 years after I bought it before I finally shot it. But it only took once. (I picked it up when I had my gun shop, for $1100.... but couldn't part with it for some reason, it was a love/hate thing.)

As far as reloading brass that's been beat up.. man, I've reloaded some really questionable stuff before. Last winter I shot my Yugo M76 from a heated shoot house out to 300 yards, and the brass had shoulders that were flattened TWICE - once from impacting the receiver, and once from impacting the wall that was 6 feet away. Some of the mouths were crimped together so bad the opposite sides were touching. I carefully pried them apart with needle nose, then put the needle nose in the hole and twisted to "somewhat make them round again."

They all worked perfectly when I shot them. Excepting for the rare "jam on feed" issue with flattened shoulders on *some* firearms designs (not all use a shoulder as a contact/indexing point on feeding), it's no big deal, the shoulders fireform out. Doesn't seem to bother the pressure by losing a tiny bit of case capacity; brass is so malleable that the shoulder pops out and completes the "volume" properly before the bullet even gets moving.

Trent,

Now you went and done it. You need to start a new thread WITH PICTURES for the SL8......

Seriously though do not try to make a Hollywood. You do not want to see an M-16A1 that somehow made it to the arms rooms un rodded and then got re issued and shot with ball with the Hollywood in place........ You especially don't want to see a team leader, squad leader, platoon Sgt, Platoon leader and Armorer and armorers assistant being dragged over the coals over the issue .

-kBob

kBob, only image I have handy.

It's an exceptionally balanced and precise rifle. Shot it in a match this year and won. (Well I won *all* of the matches I shot in, even when I drug out the milsurps, except one. But this one scored pretty damn high. The match I lost was a special event I ran, "USA vs. Commie" rifles. I chose the communist side and predictably got my butt handed to me by fine american hardware.)

Some C93 love! Mine has been quite reliable. One of my favorite rifles. Bolt gap is holding (haven't checked in awhile ) If I had the coin to buy an authentic HK93 I don't think I would. My biggest beef with these rifles is that they don't come with the paddle mag release.

GCMkc said:

My biggest beef with these rifles is that they don't come with the paddle mag release.

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I would assume that would be for the same reason the G3/Cetme/H&K91 doesn't have it. (The semi-auto compliance method eliminates the paddle mag release and replaces it with a ledge, so you can't drop-in a full auto trigger group & bolt carrier). Per ATF spec the block in front of the trigger pack has to be over-wide, to deny the full auto trigger pack with the "ears".

They *could* have worked in a paddle mag release, there's a way to do it, but you couldn't use the original parts as that would require "narrowing" the block. If you fabricated all new parts to wider dimensions it would work while still keeping the "auto-denial" dimensions in place.

quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCMkc View Post
My biggest beef with these rifles is that they don't come with the paddle mag release.
I would assume that would be for the same reason the G3/Cetme/H&K91 doesn't have it. (The semi-auto compliance method eliminates the paddle mag release and replaces it with a ledge, so you can't drop-in a full auto trigger group & bolt carrier). Per ATF spec the block in front of the trigger pack has to be over-wide, to deny the full auto trigger pack with the "ears".

They *could* have worked in a paddle mag release, there's a way to do it, but you couldn't use the original parts as that would require "narrowing" the block. If you fabricated all new parts to wider dimensions it would work while still keeping the "auto-denial" dimensions in place.

What? You must have missed my post photo. Check your glasses. LOL

I love the HK33/93s. One of my favorite 5.56 rifles. Infact I'm seriously considering making it my first rifle after trying a rental at a range a couple times. It's certainly nicer than the junky G36 the Germans are using now.

Haha yes I did miss that, and I was responding to the last photo of the C91.

It looks like they incorporated the ledge with the full auto denial and did a non-standard version of the paddle mag release.

You can see where they are still lopping off the "ears" on the front of the full auto trigger group, at the factory, to make semi-auto versions. You'd figure by now they'd have built a standalone stamping line for semi-auto trigger housings.

You guys need to learn up about Clipped & Pinned grip frames.

No idea why the original factory HKs were not drilled for the paddle release. It can be done by a smith, however, drilling all the way through the shelf turns it into a machinegun per the ATF, so care needs to be taken to make sure the hole does not fully penetrate to the other side of the shelf.

Semi-Auto converted grip frame & trigger pack on my semi-auto MP5 clone SBR, along with the paddle release on a semi-auto shelved receiver...



You might have also noticed the extended selector which mitigates the ergonomic complaints. Just another thing I forgot to mention in my previous post.

Damn, that's a nice looking gun.

The bottom line is they were a quality but over priced weapon that did nothing better than a much lighter Colt SP1 in both rifle and carbine configuration.

Now AR15s are well past that stage of development. And can still be found lighter and more accurate.

The 93 is a cool gun for collectors, but there are better working guns out there for less.

The lack of widespread military adoption in previous decades means that unlike other more popular service rifles, there aren't of ton of inexpensive parts kits out there to import into the U.S. And since HK was only able to import a small number of guns before the 89 ban stopped them, there just aren't that many of them out there.

That however doesn't stop me from wanting one though. I like having some variety in my collection of rifles, and a 5.56mm roller locker would be a great addition to the several other platforms I own that are chambered in 5.56. I keep wishing that PTR Industries would release a 93 clone with the same quality and price level as the their 91 clones, but unfortunately the options for 93 series rifles today are few and far between.

I had a HK91 in the day. Expensive? Does $175 sound expensive? In the '70's they were cheaper than Rem 700's, exactly why I bought one.

I clipped the factory buffer on the ejection port and shot all sorts of import nasty brass thru it, never stopped the brass hounds from picking them up to reload. .308 was THE round in those days, the HK93 was considered a South American issue poodle shooter. They were and still are rare.

Eventually picked up an ARMS scope mount for half the price of a German one. Cost as much as the scope - which was and remains to this day the major problem with them. They are rare and expensive with no real return on the dollar other than that. FN/FAL's could be built from kits a lot more cheaply. AR's even more so - the barrel on the HK is welded to the upper, nobody imported or made them like you can get an AR upper. Same reason applies to the AK, too - it's gunsmith work. You can install a barrel with extension in an AR upper and torque it down with a pair of channelocks - I personally always wear bib overalls doing the job.

The HK, AK, or any other, not happening. Hence, you keep the price low - but HK couldn't. They had German government issues with exportation and tariffs to comply with, on top of that they lost the profit on a whole bunch of guns sitting in NY harbor when the '89 debacle occurred.

HK doesn't hate you, the German government and a certain President who hated EBR's had more to do with it - but don't let the HK bashers get deterred by the facts. If their Government wasn't flagging every play they made, we'd have a lot more models in our hands, and cheaper.

I sold my HK and moved on to AR's. One reason every HK owner knows is fact - an AR is CLEANER than any roller lock HK ever made. I got tired of cleaning the darn thing after just one mag.

In 1976 I bought a new HK91 with carrying handle, bipod, sling, and 5 magazines for $400. I got my girlfriend a HK93 because it was a little easier for her to shoot. Back then I thought AR-15s and 5.56 were nearly worthless because I was still drinking the Kool-Aid Jeff Cooper and the other Gun Gurus were serving. Both HKs worked great! I thought I was doing good when I sold them in the '80s for a small profit. Sure wish I had them now. The only negatives are they are way too heavy for what they are intended to accomplish, the ergonomics are inferior to lighter and just as effective rifles, they are more difficult to maintain, and when they do require repair it is very expensive compared to similar rifles.

IMO, their greatest down fall is their ergonomics.

I wanted to buy a couple for years, but every time I shouldered one they just felt wrong.... mostly too big. I am 5'8" so that may be a factor but they seemed like they were built for someone MUCH bigger than me.

The AR by comparison (just like the M1 and M14) fits just right... the length of pull, the distance of the line of sight above the stock, the location and movement of the controls, and the size and shape of the gripping surfaces for the hands... everything just fits. Plus a match grade trigger can be installed easily in minutes, at a reasonable cost.

Plus now the AR is an outstanding platform for optics, mags are dirt cheap, it is light, is readily available and a reasonable cost, and has proven to be a great performer. Things are different now than in the early 80s when I was considering them. Today it is hard for me to image why many people today would still consider an HK a real contender other than to round out a collection.