The North American Arms Guardian has no safety - no slide lock - is full time DA. The long trigger draw is the safety. I heard it got very good reviews - easy take down - few moving parts - dependable. In .25, .32, .380, and two bizzare rounds ( .32 necked down to .25, & .38 necked down to .32 ).
My trigger finger is my safety
- Thread starter Nom de Forum
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Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Really relied on to fail? LOL.
Here we go again. Didn't we just go through this with heated discussion for ump-teen pages or arguing. I prefer no safeties and agree with Nom but we have been over this and I will choose a gun without the stupid thing. Those who love the safety thing are free to buy which ever gun they like. It all comes down to training and the way we are trained. I dislike them because gun manufacturers very rarely give a southpaw one he can use, they are all for right handed people. I saw the new Remington R51 and I am liking it, no bells or whistles. There is a grip safety use by either hand and magazine release used by either hand and very clean nothing else. Sounds like the way to go for my liking. Plus the grip safety is big enough to activate or seems to be. Just grab the dam gun and your good to go finger out of the trigger.
Master Blaster
Member
The only reliable safety is between the firearm owners ears.
1. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
The three NRA rules for safe gun handling.
1. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
The three NRA rules for safe gun handling.
Homerboy
Member
And how many NRA members have negligent discharges every year?
I'm sorry, but that statement is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. People are people. They get tired, sick, complacent (biggest issue out there). They make MISTAKES. And when you screw up with a pistol, somebody (usually not the dumb operator) gets hurt or killed.
Hey, why does my lawn mower and chain saw have a kill switch? Why do we put child safety caps on drugs and cleaning products? People are supposed to lock up their cleaning products and drugs if they have kids around, aren't they? But they don't always do it, do they? Bill Jordan, legendary shooter, once killed another officer with his Model 19 he "thought was unloaded". If a Marine war veteran and survivor of God knows how many shootouts can screw up, you think you can't?
Members of this gun forum are NOT representative of the gun owners in this country. And even on THIS forum, I see posts by people who are clearly ignorant about weapons. The MAJORITY of gun owners in this country buy a gun for protection, shoot it once or twice a year (IF that), and put it in the safe or sock drawer. You think THEY can't screw up? Sure, you should take lessons, or devote some serious range time to become proficient, or even read the manual, for God's sake, but the unfortunate reality is that MANY people don't. I have left ranges and gun shops due to the idiots there, both customer and employee. Check out Youtube for the idiots. One guy, I won't say his name but you probably know who I am talking about, is clearly drunk as he talks about his latest acquisition. Every other word out of his mouth is a curse. he looks like some loser who lives in his mother's basement so he can buy more guns. Employees who tell people to buy a Glock because "they're the best and can shoot underwater". So how is it that we all step on the brake without thinking about it before shifting out of park, but it is SO much trouble to learn how to use a safety? I mean, look at some of these posts. "A safety can get you killed", or "My trigger is my safety". Can somebody name me ONE published instance of a safety CAUSING a death or injury? Cause I can find about a dozen in two minutes where having one would have prevented some dumb ass who is showing his friends his Dad's gun. Two in the last week. And we have NO idea how many negligent discharges have occured that DIDN'T result in an injury.
So many Chairborne rangers out there. 99.9999% of us will NEVER use a gun in self defense, but they're SO CONCERNED about a safety being such a bad thing.
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I do not like having to accept the greater risk of malfunction when a smaller, lighter firearm is carried. I do not trust the Colt government system in service calibers when the barrel length is less than four inches. Nor do a number of the custom makers.
Because it is not necessary to do so, and I prefer the single action trigger when I can carry it.
Users generally require that the trigger pulls of firearms without manual safeties be heavier and longer. That can adversely affect accuracy. Massad Ayoob can win competitions with a Glock with a New York trigger, but I cannot. And most hostage rescue teams prefer a single action pull with a manual safety and a grip safety.
It does not take statistical evidence to lead one to the conclusion that the lack of a manual safety can result in an unintentional activation of the trigger upon reholstering, and yes, it has happened.
Another issue has to do with the handling of a firearm by an untrained person. That's partly a safety issue, and partly a tactical one. A large metropolitan area police department I know of tried some tests in which the firearm was grabbed by someone else, and they found that guns with manual safeties were less likely to be used against the officer during a struggle.
We just covered that, but I do know that I cannot shoot a firearm with a long, heavy trigger pull as well as one without one, and the longer heavier pull is almost universally recommended by experts for a carry pistol unless there is a manual safety.
One probably cannot balance reliability (including the reduction of the risk that failure to operate the safety would prevent the carrier from defending himself or herself) with gun safety any better better with anything other than a J-Frame revolver, but that introduces the capacity issue, and frankly, some of us do not do well with one because of he trigger pull.
Nom de Forum
Member
The NYPD authorizes three handguns, the Glock 19, the S&W 5946, and the SIG 226. Roughly equally distributed, so figure 10,000 of each in service. At the time I retired, EVERY reported ND was with the Glock. ZERO with the other two. I still have friends on the job and it is still the same.
Can you help me by providing a source to get the NYPDs official records with quantifiable data on what you report?
Now, all officers are trained the same way, but for some reason, the Glock owners are the ones having the trouble. Wanna know why? because of the lack of a hammer. The three guns are all safety-less, but the Smith and Sig have a hammer. I recall vividly the range commands when we were told to holster. "finger off the trigger, thumb on hammer, and holster". Resting your thumb on the back of the hammer will absolutely prevent the gun from being fired as it is being holstered. Ever reholster during a felony car stop as you move in to cuff? How about after running three blocks? Rolling around with some drunk? Not as easy as you think. The other common reason for an ND is during cleaning. The Glock requires you to pull the trigger to field strip.
The answer to your three questions is “No”. I have numerous times “reholstered” before, during, and after physically demanding training and competitive shooting.
I agree about the need to pull the trigger to field strip being undesirable. I have posted elsewhere that I am considering conversion to the M&P and this is a check in the + column for doing that.
Now I know all the Glock fanboys are gonna take a break from ironing their Glock t-shirts and sharpening their Glock knives to start screaming about "keep your finger off the trigger", but the fact is that human beings makes mistakes, and having an safety or even a hammer to rest your thumb on lessens those odds.
This kind of rhetoric is really counter-productive. It has the same rancor promoting effect as “What a joke it is that all those stuffing their pie-hole with donuts cops think only they can understand what is really important to know about defensive use of a pistol.” or “Those fanatics act like the .45 ACP and 1911 are sacred instruments of the God of Gun’s prophets John Moses Browning and John Dean Cooper, and all other pistols are heretical tools of feeble minded fools.”
How about we all skip using such rhetoric?
Take a walk over to youtube and watch some of the gun videos. Totally incompetent boobs showing off their new hardware. I have left gun ranges due to the unsafe practices I have seen there. The irony is that the Glock (and other striker fired semi auto's) is marketed to the inexperienced! No need to actually learn anything! Just point and shoot! Picking up a gun and pulling the trigger is totally intuitive. 3 year olds have shot themselves or their friends. I prefer an extra layer of safety.
I have seen the videos. I have also seen National Champions and high speed, low drag special operations soldiers have NDs with pistols that have manual safeties.
As for the helicopter crash, something tells me the passengers were highly trained weapon users if they're hunting hogs in a helicopter. Ayoob sure is. So I would expect them to keep their fingers off the trigger. But the guy who buys a gun and shoots a box of ammo before putting it in his sock drawer? Not as much confidence in him.
Yes, both “were highly trained weapon users”. Hunting from a helicopter only requires money and desire. Sarah Palin does it and I don’t think she is highly trained in anything. I agree with your last remark, but for that type of individual a manual safety does not appear to be effective in preventing tragedy. I believe they were just as prevalent before Glocks, etc., became popular. I would like to see statistical proof they were not.
All comments are in underlined italics above.
Nom de Forum
Member
Go laugh out loud at yourself. Who does not know all training can be relied on to fail? If it did not there would be no need for proficiency training. You have hoisted yourself on your own petard.
Nom de Forum
Member
I also think the R51 is a promising. I hope it works and they make a larger version with a 10 round single stack mag and 4"-5" barrel. The whole "heated discussion" would be less heated if proponents of manual safeties would realize I am not primarily arguing they are bad and should be abandoned. I am arguing the counterintuitive idea that they don't necessarily make pistols safer.
Nom de Forum
Member
All comments above in underlined italics.
As I mentioned above, there are pros and cons to every decision.
When one identifies the risks and decides whether to mitigate them, one may find that mitigating one risk may create another. In any event, step one is to identify the risks. One can start with listing...
Obvious mitigation strategies would include having a manual safety and possibly a grip safety. But that creates additional risks:
For mitigation, many opt to dispense with a manual safety altogether.
But that leads to the risk of unintentional discharge due to stress-induced muscular contractions, which can be mitigated by having a long, heavy trigger pull on any firearm that will be carried for defensive use. But that leads to other kinds of risk--that of missing, or of hitting the wrong target. Some shooters can handle that. Some cannot.
And it means that the risk of the trigger being activated when reholstering one-handed after a violent encounter is not mitigated.
Similar analysis can be applied to magazine disconnects.
The decision to mitigate another risk may lead one to choose a firearm with a loaded chamber indicator.
There is no right answer for everyone, but for me, I will not carry a semiautomatic pistol that does not have a positive manual safety switch than can be easily disengaged by the strong hand while drawing.
A grip safety alone might suffice. Haven't decided yet.
When one identifies the risks and decides whether to mitigate them, one may find that mitigating one risk may create another. In any event, step one is to identify the risks. One can start with listing...
- The risk that a firearm may be discharged unintentionally by the trained user upon reholstering.
- The risk that a firerarm may be discharged unintentionally by someone else.
- The risk that a firearm might be disharged intentionally by someone who has taken it from the defender.
Obvious mitigation strategies would include having a manual safety and possibly a grip safety. But that creates additional risks:
- The risk that the defender might fail to disengage the safety timely though human error or lack of time.
- The risk that a grip safety may be blocked by fiber or dirt.
For mitigation, many opt to dispense with a manual safety altogether.
But that leads to the risk of unintentional discharge due to stress-induced muscular contractions, which can be mitigated by having a long, heavy trigger pull on any firearm that will be carried for defensive use. But that leads to other kinds of risk--that of missing, or of hitting the wrong target. Some shooters can handle that. Some cannot.
And it means that the risk of the trigger being activated when reholstering one-handed after a violent encounter is not mitigated.
Similar analysis can be applied to magazine disconnects.
The decision to mitigate another risk may lead one to choose a firearm with a loaded chamber indicator.
There is no right answer for everyone, but for me, I will not carry a semiautomatic pistol that does not have a positive manual safety switch than can be easily disengaged by the strong hand while drawing.
A grip safety alone might suffice. Haven't decided yet.
JRH6856
Member
But they do. Safe? No. Safer? Yes.
You want to make a gun safe? Unload it and dispose of the ammo.
You want to make it safer? After loading and chambering a round, require the operator to take decisive action to place the gun in a ready-to-fire state.
Guns are most dangerous when the only thing preventing them from firing is the action or inaction of the operator which is highly dependant upon state of mind.
The human factor is not the most reliable aspect of safety, it is the most unreliable one. Training and practice can improve on this, but humans can't be relied on to consistantly do either to the extent necessary to instill the necessary mindset.
Nor can they legally be required to do so. The law can require training to a minimum standard requirement, but the actual amount necessary for safety will be different for each indiviedual.
JRH6856
Member
I disabled the mag safety on my BHP when I used it during IPSC to facilitate quick mag changes as it prevented the mag from dropping free thus requiring the off hand to extract the empy mag when it could be reaching for the spare.
One of the negatives of being left handed is that wearing pistol on the left side exposes the magazine release somewhat. Like the safety, it can be more easily bumped, releasing the mag while holstered. It is disconcerting to draw and have the mag go clattering across the floor. The mag safety on the BHP prevents this at least so, like most things, there are pros and cons.
Master Blaster
Member
As an NRA certified pistol instructor I will have to disagree with you without calling your opinion stupid as you did my statement. Anyone Who really knows anything about firearm safety knows the three rules are the only reliable way to prevent a negligent discharge and serious injury.
Oh yeah one more rule:
NEVER RELY ON ANY MECHANICAL SAFETY.
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JTQ
Member
JRH6856 is right. There are lots of scenarios where a gun with a safety would prevent an unintended discharge of the weapon. To claim otherwise is either being unrealistic or just argumentative.
As is often mentioned in these threads it's all about what you're willing to live with.
Do I think the presence of a thumb safety, grip safety, and Series 80 firing pin safety on my 1911, or the slide mounted safety or magazine disconnect safety on my S&W 4506 going to get me killed because I won't be able to figure out I have those devices or won't be able to work them when the time comes to use my pistol? No. Do I think there are situations where the presence of the manual safety increases their safety over a gun without a manual safety. Sure I do.
Would I put a thumb safety on a Glock or buy an S&W M&P with a thumb safety or mag safety. No. Do I think they are safe enough in most scenarios as they are without a manual safety? Yes.
Homerboy
Member
Master Blaster, I didn't call you stupid. Only stated that the "ears" comment is stupid. I'm sorry but it is. It implies that a human does not need mechanical safeties on anything and it disregards the simple fact that we all make mistakes. Bill Jordan did and I doubt there is anyone here who could come close to his expertise. But he had a brain fart and fired that shot and an innocent person died.
Why does your chainsaw have an auto cut off? As long as you pay attention you should never have to worry about it right? What about your medication? Why should we be bothered to press down and turn, right? And speaking of that, when was the last time you tried to open a pill bottle and said "oh crap, I forgot I have to press it down and turn first", or do you just do it without thinking about it?
And the number 2 NRA rule is broken everytime you field strip a Glock. Yet somehow they still sell. Ask the average gun owner what those three rules are and tell me what they say. Bet they won't know them. Most of them still call a magazine a clip. A good friend of mine kept his XD9 in his sock drawer. I was over there once and told him that wasn't safe since he had a kid in the house. he said "it's not loaded. Clip (yes, clip) is on the top shelf of the closet." I racked the slide and the live round in the chamber popped out. TWO YEARS that gun had been sitting there loaded, and this guy thought it couldn;t fire without the mag in. Sure, he should have learned, but he didn't, and he is sure not alone. We like to think of ourselves as the poster child for gun handling. Truth of the matter is, the average gun owner knows JUST enough to make the gun function and that's it.
Why does your chainsaw have an auto cut off? As long as you pay attention you should never have to worry about it right? What about your medication? Why should we be bothered to press down and turn, right? And speaking of that, when was the last time you tried to open a pill bottle and said "oh crap, I forgot I have to press it down and turn first", or do you just do it without thinking about it?
And the number 2 NRA rule is broken everytime you field strip a Glock. Yet somehow they still sell. Ask the average gun owner what those three rules are and tell me what they say. Bet they won't know them. Most of them still call a magazine a clip. A good friend of mine kept his XD9 in his sock drawer. I was over there once and told him that wasn't safe since he had a kid in the house. he said "it's not loaded. Clip (yes, clip) is on the top shelf of the closet." I racked the slide and the live round in the chamber popped out. TWO YEARS that gun had been sitting there loaded, and this guy thought it couldn;t fire without the mag in. Sure, he should have learned, but he didn't, and he is sure not alone. We like to think of ourselves as the poster child for gun handling. Truth of the matter is, the average gun owner knows JUST enough to make the gun function and that's it.
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Homerboy
Member
Nom De Forum, the data you seek is in the Annual Firearm Discharge report. Don't know if it is public but I know what I read and what I saw. Guess you'll just have to take my word for it
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Master Blaster
Member
Here is an example of why you should never rely on a manual safety (in this case the manual safety on an M4 LE carbine) and why the three rules are best:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...-in-training-accident-on-fort-a.p.-hill-range
The shooting happened when a fellow FBI HRT member was casing his M4 with its great manual sear blocking safety, behind the firing line. He violated all three NRA safety rules 1. pointing his M4 in an unsafe direction (the occupied firing line), 2. putting his finger on the trigger and pulling it (accidentally I am sure), and 3. failing to unload his M4 before he left the firing line leaving a live round in the chamber. Had he followed even one of the 3 rules Agent Rahoi would still be alive.
BTW I never said a gun Should not have a manual safety, Just that you should never rely on a manual safety instead of the Three Rules.
Clearly you do not understand the three rules or why there are three of them.
Please take a safety course before the next time you go to the range.
Homerboy
Member
Master, I've taken plenty of them. Retired cop and been shooting for 25 years. But you're just provong my point. I never said a saftey will PREVENT ALL accidents, just that it has (and will) prevent MANY. There is documented cases of a manual safety or a mag discoonect saving lives. Show me one where the presense of a safty got somebody hurt. I don't RELY on the manual safety. Still follow all the rules. But I also know that if somehow somebody got ahold of my carry gun, they had better know how to disenage that safety or the gun is not gonna fire. The only gun i keep with ammo in it is a S&W 6906. Locked in a safe, mag in but no round chambered. Safety ON. Even has a mag disconnect. I think that's a good idea, too. The mag disconnect debate is a fun one. Guys CONVINCED that they might need to do a "tactical reload" in the middle of a shootout, and in the TWO SECONDS it takes a person to skillfully change a mag, that they are not only going to NEED that one round in the chamber, but they will also hit the target. Total fantasy. Unless you are a combat veteran (and maybe not even then), you are NOT gonna have the presence of mind to drop a mag in the middle of a situation, much less have the ability to do it without dropping the mag and getting it in. This SWAT member screwed up, as people do. But the safty on his M4 was obviosuly not on. if it had been, the other agent would still be alive. This highly trained FBI agent screwed up. Think Joe the Plumber with his Glock won't?
As for the taking a safety class, I have seen quite a few. Most of them taught by gun buffs who just like to hear themselves talk about guns. And the people in the class generally look like they took the short bus to school as a kid. They sit there for 8 hours and pass their 50 question multiple choice test and call themselves "trained". As you just pointed out, a SWAT member screwed up. I know they get more trigger time than most people do.
The public range that i used to live near taught the 8 hour course for people seeking their carry permit. Off duty cop getting triple time teaching housewives and senior citizens about gun safety. My wife took it. 8 hours later, she was 'trained". hardly. She made about a million mistakes when i took her to the range. Took a long time for her to get up to par. How many people do that?
As for the "always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use", I agree. How many here do that? We have people talking about their "truck guns". Is that gun unloaded as it sits in the glove box? Doubt it.
As for the taking a safety class, I have seen quite a few. Most of them taught by gun buffs who just like to hear themselves talk about guns. And the people in the class generally look like they took the short bus to school as a kid. They sit there for 8 hours and pass their 50 question multiple choice test and call themselves "trained". As you just pointed out, a SWAT member screwed up. I know they get more trigger time than most people do.
The public range that i used to live near taught the 8 hour course for people seeking their carry permit. Off duty cop getting triple time teaching housewives and senior citizens about gun safety. My wife took it. 8 hours later, she was 'trained". hardly. She made about a million mistakes when i took her to the range. Took a long time for her to get up to par. How many people do that?
As for the "always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use", I agree. How many here do that? We have people talking about their "truck guns". Is that gun unloaded as it sits in the glove box? Doubt it.
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Old Dog
Member
Where's Massad Ayoob when we need him? I'm pretty sure that he's documented numerous instances of law enforcement officers who've had their guns taken from them, only to have their adversaries unable to use the safety or control lever, hence saving the officers' lives or giving them enough time to resolve the situation ...
I have never seen any documented instance where a cop or citizen lost his (or her) life solely because they forgot, or were otherwise unable, to take his/her pistol off-safe.
This thread is becoming as acrimonious as the previous one ... "Clearly you do not understand ..." and telling long-term members to "take a safety course ..." Sheesh.
I have never seen any documented instance where a cop or citizen lost his (or her) life solely because they forgot, or were otherwise unable, to take his/her pistol off-safe.
This thread is becoming as acrimonious as the previous one ... "Clearly you do not understand ..." and telling long-term members to "take a safety course ..." Sheesh.
JTQ
Member
I linked his article in "that other thread". Of course the response was along the lines of "sure, but…"
Master Blaster
Member
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700.htm.
Here is an incident where reliance on a safety instead of the three rules caused a death, resulted in lawsuit and a recall of the model 700 Remington rifle. Had mom followed rule 1 or rule three by unloading in the field no death would have occurred.
Here is an incident where reliance on a safety instead of the three rules caused a death, resulted in lawsuit and a recall of the model 700 Remington rifle. Had mom followed rule 1 or rule three by unloading in the field no death would have occurred.
JRH6856
Member
The NRA 3 rules are counter-intuitive to self defense. Following #3 would mean that the firearm should be carried unloaded with the ammo carried separately and the weapon loaded only when the need for defense arose. I actually do know some people how do this, but as for self defense, they are only defending themselves and others from themselves.
If a firearm is used only for sport or recreation, the 3 rules are applicable and useful.
If a firearm is used only for sport or recreation, the 3 rules are applicable and useful.
Homerboy
Member
Dude, you are really reaching now. You troll the web and find ONE instance when a DEFECTIVE safety contrbuted to a death? Of course the woman shouldn't have been pointing the gun, but she is a HUMAN and she made an ERROR. And a PROPERLY working safety would have prevented it.
NOBODY on here who is advocating a safety on a weapon is saying that the presence of one means that you can disregard ALL the rules of safe firearm behavior. We ARE saying that manual safeties (properlly functioning) HAVE saved lives. lack of one has surely contrinuted to loss of life.
Look, do you have to think before stepping on the brake to shift out of park? or to open a child proof pill bottle? or to press the kill switch before starting your mower? me neither. It is second nature because I have done it thousands of times. maybe if the average shooter in this country spent ONE TENTH of the time practicing with drawing their weapon and sweeping off safe as they do watching Pawn Stars or posting on gun boards, there wouldn't be such a big deal about them. When I got my Ruger LC9 (since sold), the safety was a downward to fire type. I am used to UP to fire on my Beretta and S&W. So i spent 10 minutes a night (maybe) drawing and flicking off safe. Probably drew 200 times a night. Within a week, it was second nature.
I know for ME, when a new shooter asks me about my opinion of what gun to purchase, I advise them to steer away from the safety-less striker fired guns until they get more experience.
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