What is the benefit of Full Auto?

I suppose the idea is that, if absolutely necessary, anyone in the squad can play the part of the 249 gunner, for a second or two anyway.

I wonder how it fits in with the idea of the M27 IAR. Or maybe it doesn't. I don't know if the Marines issue the M4A1 and I don't know that the Army is interested in the IAR idea.

Sam1911 said:

I suppose the idea is that, if absolutely necessary, anyone in the squad can play the part of the 249 gunner, for a second or two anyway.

I wonder how it fits in with the idea of the M27 IAR. Or maybe it doesn't. I don't know if the Marines issue the M4A1 and I don't know that the Army is interested in the IAR idea.

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Unless it's changed since I got out the M-16A4 is the Marine Corps standard issue, M-4's were for SNCO's, officers, and a few select "special" Marines.

Also the Navy MP's were issued M-16A3's when I was in Security Foces and they were full auto.

Skribs said:

I should have mentioned that crew-served weapons and anti-aircraft were a bit outside the scope of tbis question.

Good answers. Scary answer re: NFA timing.

Is therapy really more expensive than a 20k rifle plus all that ammo?

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Now you tell me!

Skribs said:

M4A1 has been full auto in every FPS I've played Although you guys are right, some M-16s are FA and some M4s are burst. It's just a general trope in FPS games (where I pay $60 or less and get all the FA I want) that M-16 = burst and M4 = FA.

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All our M4s have burst selectors only...and we don't use it. Tends to foul the action quickly and cause FTF and other assorted problems.

The full-auto variants don't go to any Army BCTs that I've been at...and I've inspected many arms rooms over the years.

Indoor/room distance conflict.

The M16/M4 clockwork burst limiter is a pretty poor idea, IMO. For one thing, it doesn't reset. If you fire two rounds with a 3-round limiter, your next trigger pull will be a single shot.

Better to have FA (no burst limiter) and train the troops on fire discipline. In those rare cases when you need FA, you need FA.

Skribs said:

For home defense? I would think semi-automatic would be preferable. Gives you more control over your rounds to leave enough in your magazine for BG #2, and gives you better shot placement.

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Absolutely. But, having some experience of this in rural outdoor environment, just the sound of a couple of bursts of full auto fire has a similar effect as racking a shotgun indoors. There isn't a home intruder alive who doesn't turn 180 degrees and run for his life once that happens.

Other than that very rare and unlikely scenario, it's all military applications and civilian fun factor.

I happen to have a very well thought out RR Colt M16A1. It has been heavily modded to make the most of full auto in a non belt fed configuration. With the Geissele SSF trigger, I can run through mag after mag in FA, two rounds at a time.

Past 15-20 yards, or prone on a bi-pod, it's useless. It is a noise generator and ammo depleter. Drop the .22lr upper on it and I can extend that to 50 yards. The mags run dry even faster though.

It's fun and a good investment, but outside a very few limited military applications, semi-auto is better in every way.

OK, I think we've reached a consensus here that semiautomatic fire is just as effective, or more effective, than FA in most situations. What are the implications for the gun control debate? Logically, one of two things should happen: either (a) semiautomatic mlitary-configured guns should be added to the NFA, or (b) FA's should be removed from the NFA (meaning, in effect, that the whole NFA should be repealed). We all know that solution (a) is totally unworkable due to the vast number of such guns in existence. That leaves solution (b). We need to start educating the public, and the politicians, as to the facts discussed in this thread, to convince them that the NFA has outlived its usefulness. Unfortunately, the lobbyists and PR experts on our side won't do this. They would like to just see the NFA universe swept under the rug.

Indoors, in CAPABLE hands, 4side brick home, proper ammo selection, neighbors far in the distance, family not in line of fire .....I personally think FA is superior.

Put yourself and an UNTRAINED adversary in a kitchen. All things equal, would you rather they have a semi or FA AR/M16 (assuming it had to be one way or the other and you couldn't wish the encounter away)? Now ask yourself "why?" now imagine yourself, well practiced and able to keep all burst COM. Which would you prefer? I know, a lot of variables, but if....

Well, back to the original question. For me, it's about keeping a BIG smile on my face.

Whats wrong with "for fun"????

Glocktogo said:

Past 15-20 yards, or prone on a bi-pod, it's useless. It is a noise generator and ammo depleter. Drop the .22lr upper on it and I can extend that to 50 yards. The mags run dry even faster though.

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Hmm? I have no problems keeping bursts in standard pistol targets with a M16 or M4 at 70-80 yards and with a belt-fed LMG that'll extend up to 150 yards, at a much higher rate of fire. I've been trained and have qualified with a Valmet M62 / Sako RK95 (plus a number of belt feds up to 12.7mm) and shoot just about everything I collect, but after a few thousands of rounds of systematic practise anyone should be able to do the same. IMO M16 is easier to shoot without a bipod, just holding it in your hands in prone or kneeling position, while most SAW:s and LMG:s are very stable with one.

Most rifle caliber full autos are area denial weapons, but with a little practise they're capable of amazingly good accuracy at extended ranges.

Having shot pistol caliber, shoulder fired weapons in both SA and FA as well as 5.56 in both configs, I have come to the following OPINION - as far as rifles go, YES I would rather have a select fire but if I had to choose between SA and FA, it would be a SA. Pistol caliber SMG's are a different ball of wax. I have a SWD M11/9 with a Lage MAX11 upper runnin the "Tactical" bolt @ 750 RPM. Once you master trigger control, that lil demon is mighty handy. I generally don't let more than 3 rounds off at a time and would take it over a SA in the same size ANY DAY. The ability to place 3 well aimed shots on a target, with a single pull of the trigger, is useful

It's a nice thought, but facts have never stood in the way of liberal politicians and feel good hippies to ever change their minds about getting rid of all guns...ESPECIALLY those nasty NFA items. Toss the argument into the ring about "mass shootings" and they'll be pulling their hair out and ripping their clothes from insanity about how "stupid" you are. I'd LOVE for the NFA to be repealed, but right now, we're just lucky to maintain what we've got.

Why would you need a short-barreled rifle or shotgun?

Why would you need a suppressor?

What's the point of a 50cal pistol?

Why do you need a 500+ HP car?

Why do you need to live in a mansion or have acres of land?

Why should you have good insurance?

Why do you need select-fire capability???

And yet in this country many of us have these. We do because we deem them necessary or as a convenience. And then there's this thing called "Freedom."

If I can own/afford a Select-fire, Suppressed, SBR, Why not?

Just a point, there was another "M16" issued with full auto capability! the first ones issued to us Marines in Vietnam, the XM16E1, a true POS. Because I was attached not organic, I was able to keep my M14 (which did have a selector) from 67 when the Mattey Mattel first showed up to spring 69, when I was forced to turn it in for the POS.

I was a rifleman before I went into the corps, so I really liked the M14. In 67 and the first half of 68 getting over run was a rather regular happening. The M14 made a much better baseball bat than the POS.

One thing I learned, is that once the NVA got through the wire, a Semi-auto weapon became automatic! The second time I was wounded was in a position that was getting overrun and a satchel charge took me and part of the trench line out. I was one of the lucky ones.

Inside the home I prefer a shotgun, in my case the double barrel 12ga hammer gun next to my bed, or the Benelli M4 in my open safe, cruiser ready.

I do like pistol caliber carbines, but more for fun than serious social work.

I gave my FNH SCAR Mk 16 to my son in law, so for my at home light carbine I presently have a SIG Carbine/ACOG setup for the immediate neighborhood. I have sighted in and ranged all the major trees/bushes and house corners around my home.

If I go on an adventure that would require serious hardware, I would fall back on my M1A/M14. Old dog and such.

Full auto is fun, but not very practical for me.

Go figure.

Fred

If I can own/afford a Select-fire, Suppressed, SBR, Why not?

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Indeed!

However that doesn't answer the question of "what is the BENEFIT?" One is a legal/philosophical question. The other is a practical one.

Put a Norrell type cyclic rate reducer in that .22 unit for an M16. The kit come with an additional weight to slow down a bolt a little, but you need an adjustable means of adding friction. Holes bored radially into the bolt body, with little coil springs and rounded "nail head" shapes, made of brass, let you adjust how much friction is applied between the bolt and the inside of the upper receiver. It varies with ammo used, too.

I always thought that FA weapons were made so that you could shower the guy 3 lanes away from you at the range with hot brass.

Schwing said:

I always thought that FA weapons were made so that you could shower the guy 3 lanes away from you at the range with hot brass.

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Full auto has little to do with brass ejection distance

Sam1911 said:

Indeed!

However that doesn't answer the question of "what is the BENEFIT?" One is a legal/philosophical question. The other is a practical one.

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To me, the benefits of Select Fire/FA is not hard to grasp.

Faster Rate of fire, Cover fire, Suppresive fire, and Fire Superiority (sure that all sounds the same, but they're not). And the "Fun" Factor as well.

You can always choose to shoot in semiauto mode if you wish, to conserve ammo and be more accurate. But there is a reason why the Military uses Select Fire/FA weapons.

If you know how to properly shoot and control a Select fire weapon, it can be a formidable rifle to have and a huge advantage on the battlefield.

Because the guy that gets the most holes the quickest usually loses. However most people will never NEED it.

There is a story by this ex-Green Beret in the book Codename: Copperhead where he is in Laos training forces sympathetic to the US mission. They are always shooting their AK's on full auto and not hitting anything during their ambushes and he realizes that they are going low on ammo, being guerrillas and all.

So he takes his platoon or so of guys out into the jungle and has each one step into a circle he drew in the dirt and try to hit these monkeys in this tree in front of the circle. One by one, each guy goes up, misses terribly, and eventually expends his magazine and has to go sit back down. At this point there are no dead monkeys.

The Green Beret guy then loads up an AK and puts it on semi and proceeds to lay a hurt on the monkeys; one shot, one kill. Pop pop pop, for a whole mag. Finally it was lesson learned for his Laotian troops.

When they did use full auto, it was on belt-fed 2-man machineguns usually on tripods with aiming stakes driven into the ground to prevent an overzealous gunner from traversing too far to the left or right and endangering the rest of the force.

As an aside, Pier Morgan (...shudders...) was in Houston about 6 months or a year ago and went to this one 'premier' range here in Houston. They let him shoot a regular AR15, a full-auto AR, and then they got him behind the M2 letting loose. I couldn't believe the guy wouldn't even crack a smile. He must have burned through a grand in ammo easy. Talk about MY idea of fun!

Which brings me to my final point; civilian ownership of machineguns is all about fun.