Another Non-firearm weapon of interest ...

See also Tire-bumpers, Tread-knockers, and Hobo hammers.
(As used by the American Train Riders gang.)

A simple stick off a hardwood tree, mounted with a wheel-weight lead end, cast over a campfire in an empty beer or Beeny-Weeny can.

rc

I recently saw this.

http://www.target.com/p/hello-kitty-tee-ball-bat-pink-25/-/A-14500329

If it were in the car Id leave the cellophane on it.

As a long time professional angler (I worked on my first charter boat as a mate in 1973....) I've use a fish bat or billy on many occasions working the cockpit of one boat or another. We commonly used them on big fish that were thrashing about like sailfish, big dolphin (the fish), cobia, king macks, etc. A short club (which is all a billy is...) can be very effective for its intended purpose....

Now for the bad news... since I walked right off the boats I worked on into our local police academy at the end of 1973 I learned to have a different take on billys, clubs, and any form of "blunt instrument". Our species has been killing each other with them since we first learned to use tools -with whatever object was available - a rock, a club, a bottle, hell anything that you can beat someone over the head with....

As a result any stick, club, or similar type object used in a confrontation is considered using "deadly force". This means that the only time you can actually use one is when you'd be justified in killing (self defense), period. In that situation you're probably much better off with a firearm since you don't have to get so close to an opponent who really, really doesn't like you at all....

I first heard of an implement like that referred to as a "Priest" in English fly fishing books. Some were made out a a length of stag antler.

I made an approx. 18" priest out of purple heart wood on the lathe in wood shop in 8th grade; tens of years, hundreds of blues and stripers and three boats later, it's still in the fishing kit somewhere under the console...surprisingly, since Purple Heart doesn't float!

As a result any stick, club, or similar type object used in a confrontation is considered using "deadly force". This means that the only time you can actually use one is when you'd be justified in killing (self defense), period.

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Yeah I don't buy that. At least not as a universal legal truth applicable to the whole US. I know for a fact there are multiple states that legally allow private citizens to carry club-type weapons for self-defense in addition to firearms. TN for example allows it if you take a class first. Heck I've even used batons and other clubs myself on assailants where a firearm would have certainly been excessive force, and I wasn't arrested. Can they be deadly? Sure! Especially if you don't know what your doing and aim for the head. But not categorically considered deadly like a bullet is. Imagine what a nightmare that would be for any cop who used his or her baton on an unarmed suspect.

Down here in south Florida when I was in police work (1973 to 1995) we had more than one cop charged and prosecuted for using a baton (or old Kel-lite) to subdue (actually kill) a problem on the street. As a matter of fact we even had a riot or two that resulted from the results of various court cases...

That's why I posted what I did. Yes, there are circumstances where you're more than justified in the use of a baton or club in self defense but don't kid yourself. It's still deadly force and you'll be judged on whether it was justified or not ( and head strikes meant to subdue can actually kill - happens all the time on the street....). And you still have to get entirely too close to an opponent that might just take your baton or club and make you wish you'd brought a gun instead - and stayed well out of reach.

lemay, what you're ignoring is that in many areas a stick, club, or the like may be legal while a firearm is not. I'm also going to disagree on a club automatically being lethal force. Strikes to the head or throat, yes, that's lethal force. Strikes to major muscles, no. Strikes to joints if strikes to major muscles aren't effective would be an escalation, but still not lethal.

And, once more, for anyone contemplating the carry of a stick or club for defense familiarize your self with your state and local laws and regulations.

ugaarguy said:

I'm also going to disagree on a club automatically being lethal force.

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That is one of those things that is going to be dependent on local laws.

If a locality considers a club to be a lethal or deadly weapon the legal defensive usage of the weapon may be constrained much like a firearm or knife.

I am amused that 2 items my department issued to me in the early 70's, the billy club and the beaver tail sap, are now enumerated as prohibited in the state law.

Kinder and gentler I guess.

Bats were favorites of the mob for non lethal or lethal applications. When I played Soft ball I had a bat with Glove and ball behind the seat of the Truck.

Biker, you and I are from the same era. I still have both my old slapper and that much abused and scarred up billy club (mostly scarred up from breaking out windows, not beating heads) -but neither have seen use since that early era (73 to 79 for me). We had a whole series of serious prosecutions of cops down here starting in late 79 that caused every department to re-think it's contact weapons. Some years later when California had it's Rodney King moment, most of us in my area couldn't believe that professionals in that state hadn't already gotten the message loud and clear...

Impact or contact weapons aren't illegal to possess in most instances -it's what you do with one that sets the stage for later legal problems. Anyone who doesn't understand the jeopardy you can find yourself in might learn that terrible lesson the hard way -particularly if they use them to strike the head area of an opponent in the heat of combat.

Fish bat? Not so much.
Tire bat? Yup. Always have tires on my vehicles and don't need 18 of them to justify.

[Down here in south Florida when I was in police work (1973 to 1995) we had more than one cop charged and prosecuted for using a baton (or old Kel-lite) to subdue (actually kill) a problem on the street. As a matter of fact we even had a riot or two that resulted from the results of various court cases...

That's why I posted what I did. Yes, there are circumstances where you're more than justified in the use of a baton or club in self defense but don't kid yourself. It's still deadly force and you'll be judged on whether it was justified or not ( and head strikes meant to subdue can actually kill - happens all the time on the street....). And you still have to get entirely too close to an opponent that might just take your baton or club and make you wish you'd brought a gun instead - and stayed well out of reach.]


I don't know what police department or training academy you were with, but I went through the Colorado Law Enforcement Training Academy in 1977, and we were taught to never hit anyone over the head. That went out with the 1950's and blackjacks that were misused by ill trained police. They issued us the strait baton and trained us to work on hands, wrists, collar bones, stomach, and knees. Why would you even think to hit someone in the head with a club when it's way easier to just take out a hand or arm? We were issued a Koga baton to augment the issued Smith and Wesson model 64, as a non lethal defense and control tool. To my knowledge, nobody ever died from a broken wrist or knee cap.

A stick gives many options only if the user uses his head.

Sticks work but as I was taught work arms gut and knees.

lemay, what you're ignoring is that in many areas a stick, club, or the like may be legal while a firearm is not.

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I'm not sure about that. I have not surveyed all 50 states laws on the matter of sticks and clubs, but I do know that in every state I checked, its illegal for private citizens to carry a sap, billie or Asp style batton. There are a few places where your CCW licence covers things like that, too, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Now, things that have a legitimate non-violent use but can be pressed into service as impact weapons (canes, flashlights, pens) may be different, but single-purpose impact weapons like I mentioned above seem to seldom be legal "less lethal" alternatives to firearms.

In Georgia only firearms and knives with blades longer than 5 inches are considered weapons (except in school zones): http://www.georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11&section=125.1

Kentucky allows pretty much any deadly weapon to be carried openly. Our CCDW permit only allows one to conceal their weapons.

In Georgia only firearms and knives with blades longer than 5 inches are considered weapons (except in school zones):

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O.C.G.A. § 16-11-126
Carrying a concealed weapon


(a) A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon when such person knowingly has or carries about his or her person, unless in an open manner and fully exposed to view, any bludgeon, knuckles whether made from metal, thermoplastic, wood, or other similar material, firearm, knife designed for the purpose of offense and defense, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character outside of his or her home or place of business, except as permitted under this Code section.

Admittedly, this only applies to concealed "bludgeons" but I would imagine that's the way most people would carry a billy club, sap or collapsable batton. I'm not sure what sort of response you would be likely to get from carrying one openly from LEO or the public.

In the end, I guess I just want to encourage people to know the laws of their states and how they are enforced by the local LEOs before deciding on carrying something for self defence. Don't just assume that if its not a knife or a gun, that its automatically okay to slip into a pocket or tuck into your wasteband.

lemaymiami said:

As a long time professional angler (I worked on my first charter boat as a mate in 1973....) I've use a fish bat or billy on many occasions working the cockpit of one boat or another. We commonly used them on big fish that were thrashing about like sailfish, big dolphin (the fish), cobia, king macks, etc. A short club (which is all a billy is...) can be very effective for its intended purpose....

Now for the bad news... since I walked right off the boats I worked on into our local police academy at the end of 1973 I learned to have a different take on billys, clubs, and any form of "blunt instrument". Our species has been killing each other with them since we first learned to use tools -with whatever object was available - a rock, a club, a bottle, hell anything that you can beat someone over the head with....

As a result any stick, club, or similar type object used in a confrontation is considered using "deadly force". This means that the only time you can actually use one is when you'd be justified in killing (self defense), period. In that situation you're probably much better off with a firearm since you don't have to get so close to an opponent who really, really doesn't like you at all....

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While I agree with you 100% on this, there IS an important difference...namely that a baseball bat is NOT generally considered a weapon like a knife or gun with respect to carrying one around or having one in a car. There is no requirement, for example, to have a permit to carry one.

I grant you that circumstances will determine how such an item may be viewed, whether as a weapon or not. I'll not debate that with you at all.

O.C.G.A. § 16-11-126
Carrying a concealed weapon


(a) A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon when such person knowingly has or carries about his or her person, unless in an open manner and fully exposed to view, any bludgeon, knuckles whether made from metal, thermoplastic, wood, or other similar material, firearm, knife designed for the purpose of offense and defense, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character outside of his or her home or place of business, except as permitted under this Code section.

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You obviously got that from an outdated website. OCGA 16-11-126 (a) actually says:

LexisNexis said:

(a) Any person who is not prohibited by law from possessing a handgun or long gun may have or carry on his or her person a weapon or long gun on his or her property or inside his or her home, motor vehicle, or place of business without a valid weapons carry license.

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Further, OCGA 16-11-125.1 defines what a weapon is:

LexisNexis said:

§ 16-11-125.1. Definitions


As used in this part, the term:

(1) "Handgun" means a firearm of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged by an action of an explosive where the length of the barrel, not including any revolving, detachable, or magazine breech, does not exceed 12 inches; provided, however, that the term "handgun" shall not include a gun which discharges a single shot of .46 centimeters or less in diameter.

(2) "Knife" means a cutting instrument designed for the purpose of offense and defense consisting of a blade that is greater than five inches in length which is fastened to a handle.

(3) "License holder" means a person who holds a valid weapons carry license.

(4) "Long gun" means a firearm with a barrel length of at least 18 inches and overall length of at least 26 inches designed or made and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or made to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed:

(A) Shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger or from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged; or

(B) Metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifle bore for each single pull of the trigger;

provided, however, that the term "long gun" shall not include a gun which discharges a single shot of .46 centimeters or less in diameter.

(5) "Weapon" means a knife or handgun.

(6) "Weapons carry license" or "license" means a license issued pursuant to Code Section 16-11-129.

(Emphasis Mine)

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