Lead bullet problems continue (MBC)

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Jlr2267

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I made a post here a while back about Missouri Bullet Co bullets giving me much grief, got some good advice, and have double-checked all known (common) causes. Still getting unacceptable fouling with both hot, mild or puff loads. I am using their 18BHN 240 SWC and 158gr SWC. The revolvers are a 3" GP100 and 5.5" Redhawk.

The bullets will pass thru each cylinder with mild pressure, and are coming out the same size as they went in. In both revolvers, the bullets are approximately .0015" oversize to the bore (based on slug measurements). Both bores are very smooth and do not normally get copper fouled with jackets or plating. I have tried all of the following powders, all of which had similar result:

Herco
300-MP
H110
Power Pistol
Unique
Green Dot
IMR4227

Of these, the Green Dot load left noticeably less fouling, but still it was pretty bad. The fouling is in the full length of the barrel, heavier, it seems, toward the muzzle. No fouling whatsoever on the forcing cone, but a little in the cylinders (which is new to me).
I have also verified that my seat/crimp dies are not sizing down the bullet with before/after measurements. I have reloaded thousands upon thousands of lead SWC and never seen anything like this that was not easily solved (or at least understood).

The only things remaining are in the bullet itself. They do have a beveled base, which likely allows some gas blow-by for a microsecond, and the lube is kinda hard, possibly not doing its job adequately. Never had leading of any amount with flat base and dry lube coated (like the Hornady lead bullets).

Anybody else have these kinds of issues w/MBC and if so, any remedies? I still have several hundred of these so I'd like to find a way to use them if possible (not as fishing sinkers).
 
How does the throats size compare to the bore? if these are smaller it will drive you nuts.

What load range were you testing at with these powders, low, mid max?

18BHN is the hard cast which requires to be pushed hard to seal. I have always used 2400 for my 357 Mag when shooting lead. Which is the one powder you have not tried. Some powders burn Hot (temp) which can lead to more leading. BE has been used with lead for decades and works great. I use WST for my 45acp loads. I'm using the softer 12TBH from MBC 185gr SWC (beveled base). Now my load is very light. I was testing for leading at 4.0 gr, 150 rounds 185gr with no leading. Min recommended is 4.4gr.

Have you tried polishing your bore with Butches Bore Shine? If you have any roughness this may help.
 
I have not used MBC, but maybe tumble lube with Lee Alox Bullet Lube 4 oz Liquid? It works on reqular type cast bullets. How is accuracy? Accuracy gets worse if you have real leading.
Liquid Alox application
Posted by on 20 October 2011 12:22 PM
Best results in applying liquid alox are when the alox is heated before applying, or thinned with paint thinner. This makes it flow more easily, and results in a more even coat. One technique is to boil water and pour it into a coffee mug, and then drop the bottle of liquid alox into the mug for about five minutes.

Place your freshly cast bullets into something about the size of a Cool Whip bowl and drop a few drops of liquid Alox on the bullets. Mix the bullets around until they are all coated. Lay the freshly coated bullets on some wax paper to dry. Liquid alox will usually dry enough overnight to reload the next day, depending upon the humidity. Tacky bullets can be dusted with powdered graphite.

If you subscribe to the "more is better" line of thought, your coated bullets may never dry. Don't go for a "golden" color but rather just a light varnish. If you discover that your bullets are sticky the next day, you can get by with using a little less the next time. Keep reducing until the "stickiness" is gone by the next day.

If you are sizing your cast bullets, it is necessary to lube them first. Because the sizer will remove some of the surface of a larger diameter bullet, you may need to re-lubricate the bullets after they have been sized.

Many of our bullets are of the "TL" or Tumble Lube design. These bullets have many shallow grooves that are perfect for allowing Liquid Alox to adhere to a great amount of surface. It has been reported that the accuracy of these bullets is high.
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th_IMG_4480.jpg
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Simply no need to use 18 BHN handgun bullets. I load .357 Magnum and hot .45 Colt ammo, and none of my hand cast bullets are harder than 11 BHN. Heck, Elmer Keith developed the original .44 Magnum load using 11 BHN bullets.

Don
 
Blue68f100 said:
How does the throats size compare to the bore? if these are smaller it will drive you nuts.

What load range were you testing at with these powders, low, mid max?

18BHN is the hard cast which requires to be pushed hard to seal. I have always used 2400 for my 357 Mag when shooting lead. Which is the one powder you have not tried. Some powders burn Hot (temp) which can lead to more leading. BE has been used with lead for decades and works great. I use WST for my 45acp loads. I'm using the softer 12TBH from MBC 185gr SWC (beveled base). Now my load is very light. I was testing for leading at 4.0 gr, 150 rounds 185gr with no leading. Min recommended is 4.4gr.

Have you tried polishing your bore with Butches Bore Shine? If you have any roughness this may help.
Click to expand...

The throats are not swaging the bullets...I checked it. I failed to list 2400, bit I did try it and got similar leading. I pretty much stay mid-range with all powders except 300-MP and H110

The bores on both revolvers are polished.
 
243winxb said:
I have not used MBC, but maybe tumble lube with Lee Alox Bullet Lube 4 oz Liquid? It works on reqular type cast bullets. How is accuracy? Accuracy get worse if you have real leading.
Click to expand...

I may try that...couldn't hurt I guess.
Accuracy starts to taper after 100 or so. I can definitely tell when its time to stop.
 
This is a link to a PDF download about bullet casting. Chapter 7 deals with causes of leading:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

I am not an expert by any means, but I shoot lots of commercially made hard cast bullets in 38 special and 44 magnum. I use Bullseye for my normal loads because it seems to prevent leading. I expect Bullseye is obturating the bullet faster so the bullet is not skidding down the barrel. I believe the fastest powder you listed is Green Dot (still slower than Bullseye) and you mentioned it gives you less leading than the other powders you mentioned.

Hope this helps. Good luck.
 
Aside from the throats, revolvers can have another common issue. There is often a constriction in the bore where the barrel is screwed into the frame. If your revos have one, then this is what you were measuring when you slugged the bore.

To check for a constriction, put a patch on a jag to where it's a tight fit in the bore, and push through the barrel while feeling for tight/loose spots.

I'm not sure why your other SWC didn't foul, though. So yeah, it might be a lube issue. I don't think 18BHN is too hard, unless there's something else going wrong.
 
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Since you have tested in mid range only. I would work up to near max since you have a very hard bullet. I don't think it's the lube. The lube used by MBC is very good and is a fairly high temp 140F.
 
I only have experience with greendot and unique of the powders you listed. First: What is the load you are using?
Second: Don't increase the load you are using. Leading is caused by gas going around the bullet. So if you increase the load it will magically seal up? I don't buy the "obutration" theory that more pressure is better when you are already leading.
A bevel base bullet won't make any difference, just easier to seat. Some real picky "bullseye" shooters like flat base bullets.
I have lots of experience shooting and loading lead in semi autos with 9mm and 40. Been loading and shooting 38 for about six months now on a regular basis with no leading out of three different guns using MBC bullets. I'm not a fan of pushing lead hard.
You've cleaned the bore in your Redhawk. Load up 7.0gr of unique with the 240 bullet and run them through. I like a mild taper crimp but a roll crimp will work fine too.
Don't worry about the lube, Missouri uses plenty on their bullets. [smokey]
 
Since you seem to have eliminated all of the other common problems, all I can deduce is that you are swaging your bullets when seating them into the cases.

.001 overbore doesn't matter if you are swaging them down .002 when you seat them.

Have you seated a bullet, then pulled it and measured its diameter yet ?
 
blarby said:
Since you seem to have eliminated all of the other common problems, all I can deduce is that you are swaging your bullets when seating them into the cases.

.001 overbore doesn't matter if you are swaging them down .002 when you seat them.

Have you seated a bullet, then pulled it and measured its diameter yet ?
Click to expand...

Yes, I checked 6 bullets before/after with no change.
 
Yes, I checked 6 bullets before/after with no change.
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Well, ya got me stumped.

You either have a mechanical problem thats the same in both of your weapons, or we're missing something.

While I don't doubt that bad bullets are possible, I'd just like to throw in that from MBC its highly unlikely.

Do you have a method of testing bullet hardness ? Maybe you think you have 22, but really have 14- hey, it happens. I've done it.

The only other thing that comes to mind is bevel based bullets. Never had the same results with bevel base as I did with flat base- and thats truly a bullet issue, but not an unfixable one.
 
Where is the leading occuring?

Near the forcing cone, the bullet is the wrong size or the cylinder/forcing cone have size issues
Near the barrel, running out of lube
In the middle, constriction in the barrel (normally at the threads) or rough barrel
(these are my rules of thumb)

This assumes you have the right sized bullet and it is not massively overhard which it does not sound like it is. I would prefer a tighter fit in the cylinder but yours is not bad.
 
Peter M. Eick said:
Where is the leading occuring?

Near the forcing cone, the bullet is the wrong size or the cylinder/forcing cone have size issues
Near the barrel, running out of lube
In the middle, constriction in the barrel (normally at the threads) or rough barrel
(these are my rules of thumb)

This assumes you have the right sized bullet and it is not massively overhard which it does not sound like it is. I would prefer a tighter fit in the cylinder but yours is not bad.
Click to expand...

Entire length of the barrel, none on the cone. Barrel is polished.
 
I run near max with 300-mp and h110...heavy leading
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OK, "near max" and "heavy leading" usually go together with lead.
The bullets are probably fine, all the thousands I bought from MBC were. Adding more lube won't make any difference either.
Don't use a factory crimp die, clean your barrel, and drop the charge to the starting load. Also use a faster powder the h110, try the unique and report back.
 
sexybeast said:
OK, "near max" and "heavy leading" usually go together with lead.
The bullets are probably fine, all the thousands I bought from MBC were. Adding more lube won't make any difference either.
Don't use a factory crimp die, clean your barrel, and drop the charge to the starting load. Also use a faster powder the h110, try the unique and report back.
Click to expand...

As stated, *all* powders are leading, including Unique.

Barrel is clean/polished, as stated. FCD has no effect on my bullet size, as stated.
 
Have you tried the low end, min?

Since you have pushed these med and up the only area you have not tested is low.

Do you have a way to confirm the hardness?

No not use the FCD till this is figured out.
 
FME 18BHN are very hard and finicky. They produced heavy leading in the model 66 S&W I had at the time (the length of the barrel) Right along the grooves. Lube change helped but not enough. I used cast with a 12 BHN and no more problems for light to medium loads. YMMV

IMO drop to a 12 BHN cast bullet with a good lube and retry.

Note: I was under the impression that a BHN 18> was for slow powder/ heavy charge and the softer the BHN are for light loads etc. Once again YMMV but your using everything in the book (powder), deciding what kind of load you would like to shoot first, then choose the powder and bullet that is best suited for that load type might be a better approach IMO.
 
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Wreck-n-Crew said:
Once again YMMV but your using everything in the book (powder), deciding what kind of load you would like to shoot first, then choose the powder and bullet that is best suited for that load type might be a better approach IMO .
Click to expand...

I shoot hot, mild and mid-range. I'm not good enough to choose a powder/bullet combo that is "best suited" without trying them first. Conventional wisdom says MBC 18BHN lead, sized properly, will work great with hot magnum loads w/slow powders (but it doesn't in my revolvers)...which led me to try different powders in an attempt to find that "best-suited" combo...

I think the softer lead may be the answer. I will try some when these are gone.
 
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