Universal. Clays. Universal Clays. Huh?

Universal.

Clays is a faster powder than Universal.

I just call it "Clays", and I use it a lot for .45 ACP target loads. It is fast, and clean, but better at lighter to mid range loads, so that is what I use it for. "Universal" is an entirely different powder, which is slower burning, and with a wider range of handgun cartridge uses.

Hodgdon brought out a line of shotgun powder which they named "The Clays Line".
The line was made up of Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays in that order for speed of the powder. So many reloaders were confused by the use of the Clays name in all 3 Hodgdon as been slowly moving away from using the Clays name in all but the first Clays powder.

They are now calling them Clays, International and Universal dropping the Clays ID from the second 2 powders.

Go here: http://hodgdon.com/shotpist.html and you can read it for yourself.

Three powders originally introduced as Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays. Because of confusion they were renamed Clays, International and Universal.

The last label I saw on a Universal bottle said "Clays technology."

International (clays) has very few handgun applications. All were originally shotshell powders but Clays and Universal have spread into pistol loading.

The actual manufacturer is ADI powders in Australia. Hodgdon should have simply kept ADI's nomenclature.

Clays = AS30N
International "Clays" = AS50N
Universal "Clays" = AP70N

Your Universal is their clone of Alliant Unique. Loads are very close to each other, but not exact so follow load recipes to begin with. Universal burns more completely than Unique, but also costs more. Just like Unique, Universal is a very versatile powder for handgun loads.

I'm sitting here looking at a bottle of Universal Clays.

That's what the label says: "Universal" in big black letters, with the "Clays" sort of camouflaged as white letters in a green band underneath the "Universal".

I date my powders when I buy them, and this bottle has been sitting for a while as it's dated 1999.

The burning speed of the stuff is close to that of Unique. I plan to use up this bottle in the near future, and loads from the middle of the handbook range for Unique will work fine.

Example: Lyman loads for the 356402 cast 124-grain bullet run from 4.0 Unique to 6.0 grains of Unique. I'll load 5.0 of Universal and call it good.... it's just for plinkers, after all.

Hodgdon's decision-making in naming these powders is about the DUMBEST merchandising I have ever seen, considering the potential safety problems involved.

BruceB said:

I'm sitting here looking at a bottle of Universal Clays.

That's what the label says: "Universal" in big black letters, with the "Clays" sort of camouflaged as white letters in a green band underneath the "Universal".

I date my powders when I buy them, and this bottle has been sitting for a while as it's dated 1999.

The burning speed of the stuff is close to that of Unique. I plan to use up this bottle in the near future, and loads from the middle of the handbook range for Unique will work fine.

Example: Lyman loads for the 356402 cast 124-grain bullet run from 4.0 Unique to 6.0 grains of Unique. I'll load 5.0 of Universal and call it good.... it's just for plinkers, after all.

Hodgdon's decision-making in naming these powders is about the DUMBEST merchandising I have ever seen, considering the potential safety problems involved.

Click to expand...

I would be careful, looking at the 9mm load data for both show a wide variation between the two. With most bullets Unique is a full grain or more higher than the Universal loads. With a 115gr Speer GDHP bullet the top load with Unique is 6.3gr and with Universal it's only 5.0gr. The starting charge of Unique is bigger than the Max charge of Universal.

I always thought they were much closer in charge weights but i guess it depends upon the cartridge. In the .38 Special with a 158gr lead bullet the two powders are only .2gr apart. With a 125gr XTP bullet the difference is slightly higher @ .5gr...

From a post about a year ago:

"Clays" and "Universal" are two entirely different powders. Both are Hodgdon** powders.
The fact that one says "Clays Technology" in small letters does not make the same as "CLAYS" powder.
Don't confuse the two.



CLAYS has a burn rate of 6.7 -- very fast
UNIVERSAL, on the other hand, burns at ~2.4


** Hodgdon in the sense that they are imported by Hogdon from Thales Australia Defense Industries (ADI)

Note also:
ADI Powder/Hodgdon naming
AS30N.................Clays
Trail Boss.............Trial Boss
AS50N.................International
AP70N.................Universal
AR2205...............H4227
AR2207...............H4198
AR2219...............H322
BM2....................Benchmark
AR2206H.............H4895
AR2208...............Varget
AR2209...............H4350
AR2213SC...........H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217...............H1000
AR2225...............Retumbo
AR2218...............H50BMG

Note also that ADI had a disruption in their production of "AD70N" a few months back, and won't be restarting until 2014.
Why do I care? Because AD70N = Universal

postscript: ADI also makes IMR8208.
Bottom Line? If the Aussies go down, we are in a world of hurt.

Kind of like the "Dots", but with names instead of colors.

My guess is you have a 1 Lb. jug of Universal Clays which if you do looks like the below image:



White label with blue text and trim and the word Clays below Universal white on blue. Should you have what I have pictured you would use the Hodgdon Universal load data.

The container should have some load data shown, note they (in small print) point out the loads shown are Max Load Data.

Yeah, they could have done better with their naming conventions. Much. much better.

Ron

All three were initially designed to work primarily as shotgun powders, hence the three names with Clays in them. With confusion happening on some folks' part, they went with just Universal. All three also happen to make decent pistol propellants. I like Universal for 20ga, 28ga as well as 38, 9mm, 32SWL and even 45ACP

oneounceload said:

All three were initially designed to work primarily as shotgun powders, hence the three names with Clays in them. With confusion happening on some folks' part, they went with just Universal. All three also happen to make decent pistol propellants. I like Universal for 20ga, 28ga as well as 38, 9mm, 32SWL and even 45ACP

Click to expand...

Actually only 2 made decent pistol powders. From the beginning Hodgdon has strongly recommended against using International for any handgun applications. Right now I don't think they supply load data for any handgun cartridge. International has been reported to spike pressures, sometimes very high spikes. If the powder company distributing the powder doesn't supply any handgun data for that powder there is usually a very good reason.

ArchAngelCD said:

Actually only 2 made decent pistol powders. From the beginning Hodgdon has strongly recommended against using International for any handgun applications. Right now I don't think they supply load data for any handgun cartridge. International has been reported to spike pressures, sometimes very high spikes. If the powder company distributing the powder doesn't supply any handgun data for that powder there is usually a very good reason.

Click to expand...

I believe that covers it nicely. The following is from our friends at Hodgdon:

Clays
Introduced in January, 1992, CLAYS gunpowder has "taken the clay target world by storm". It is the cleanest burning , most consistent 12 ga. 7/8., 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. powder available today, the preferred choice of competitive target shooters.. The superb burning characteristics of this powder produce soft, smooth recoil and excellent patterns. These features transfer directly to handgun applications where target shooting is the main goal. 45 ACP and 38 Special are only two of the cartridges where CLAYS gunpowder provides "tack driving" target accuracy with flawless functioning. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

International
INTERNATIONAL gunpowder is the second in the "CLAYS" gunpowder series of powders, bringing this technology to the 20 gauge reloader. It also works in 12 ga., 2 3/4" light, medium and heavy 1 1/8 oz. loads, and high velocity 1 oz. As with CLAYS gunpowder, clean burning and flawless functioning is the rule. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

Universal
UNIVERSAL gunpowder handles the broadest spectrum of cartridges for both pistol and shotgun. This is the Clays gunpowder technology designed for 28 gauge shooters. From the 25 ACP to the 44 magnum and 28 gauge to 12 gauge, UNIVERSAL CLAYS gunpowder provides outstanding performance. As with all the "CLAYS" gunpowder series powders, clean burning and uniformity are part of its attributes. Available in 1 lb., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

Click to expand...

International makes no mention or reference to handgun use.

Ron

"I wish they were just listed by the old number system as IMR did."

Which SYSTEM is that? Can't I use 4756 instead of 4759? They are only three apart.

Jim Watson said:

"I wish they were just listed by the old number system as IMR did."

Which SYSTEM is that? Can't I use 4756 instead of 4759? They are only three apart.

Click to expand...

Priceless!

Lets make it bad using numbers and have things like H4831 and IMR 4831 close but not the same...two different 4350s two different 4895s.

Accurate 2520 must be for the 25-20 winchester right? I mean it says 2520 on the bottle!

Lets see Alliant is doing kind of the same thing Bullseye, BE-84, BE-86 all different beasts.

Universal Clays is Universal not just plain Clays, poor naming scheme on Hodgdons part, but not all that bad in the grand scheme of things.
(and one of my favorite pistol powders)

As a side note ADI does list some handgun loads for AP50N but not many.

"Only 3 a part" funny
Ok hhmmm
4227 = 4 + 2 + 2 + 7 = 15
4831 = 4 + 8 + 3 + 1 = 16

Only 1 apart