When Does a .380 Beat a 9mm? Good article

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Posted by Walt Sherrill:

If you're in a Mall parking lot and you see someone who looks out of place lingering nearby, acting suspiciously (watching you, for example), you may have the time to get ready, to un-holster a weapon, etc.,...
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You really, really do not want to unholster a weapon because you see someone lingering or watching you in the out of doors.

You do want to be very wary and to start taking precautionary action.

Bit I am more concerned about the ones I do not see.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
If you're in a Mall parking lot and you see someone who looks out of place lingering nearby, acting suspiciously (watching you, for example), you may have the time to get ready, to un-holster a weapon, etc.,..
Kleanbore said:
You really, really do not want to unholster a weapon because you see someone lingering or watching you in the out of doors.
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Not really what I meant, but I agree -- I should be more thoughtful in how I address this point. Taking steps to unholster a weapon doesn't mean you should be waving it around (or that you should even let it be seen). That wasn't the idea/intent...

I did/do mean that you should "be ready to act", maybe hand in pocket if you've got a pocket holster, hand under your coat if you're wearing a coat, with hand on the weapon ready to un-holster it, etc. The point was about being prepared before you need to act -- and not having to act unexpectedly. It was not about scaring others nearby. Surprise on your part may be an asset in a confrontation.

I agree, though, that the unseen aggressors is also a problem. Potentially a much bigger problem.

And they aren't always Human. My personal worry is dog attacks -- and I don't mean ill-tempered Boston Terriers or a nearby German Shepherd.

We've had a number of folks attacked locally over the past year: a UPS driver, a bike rider, and a mail carrier. Just late last month a pack of dogs (15 hounds belonging to people in the area -- not feral dogs) apparently killed a man walking on a rural road in nearby Rockingham County. That's scary. I don't know whether a small gun would REALLY help with such an attack, but it would certainly be better than a pointed stick. A shot gun would be better...
 
Why Twelve Inches?

RetiredUSNChief said this:

The 12 inches mentioned in most discussions comes from the MINIMUM penetration requirements of some FBI Firearms Training Unit testing done a number of years ago as the result of the 1986 Miami shooting.

This 12 inch minimum was dictated under eight very specific sets of testing circumstances, none of which involved an actual human body as the penetration subject.

The study standards were defined because it was recognized that the most important aspect of ANY firearm when used against another human being is penetration deep enough to reliably reach vital organs.
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So, when we look at most human beings, we see that the distance between the front of the chest and the vital organs, or even the spinal column, is usually less than one foot.

So why did they settle on twelve inches? That's not to provide an extra margin for a really big man.

First, your attacker may well have turned sideways.

Not only that, there is a not insignificant chance that you will strike an arm: your bullet will have to penetrate the sleeve, penetrate into the arm, penetrate the ulna or the radius or maybe both, and than exit the arm. By the way, exiting the body takes quite a bit of energy.

Then, your slowed (and possibly deformed) bullet will have to enter the chest after penetrating one or more additional layers of clothing, and drive through to hit and damage something vital.

I hope that helps put things in perspective.

No, none of us wants to be shot by a .380, or a .32, or for that matter, a .22 Short. But we do want to come out of a violent altercation unharmed.

As Walt Sherrill pointed out, there are those who will insist on a large caliber defensive handgun. But when we consider that it is impossible to effect solely by means of marksmanship the kind of "placement" necessary to stop a charging assailant, we realize the importance of very quickly being able to fire a controlled second shot and possible a third, or still more.

So--there are compromises involved.
 
Todd1700: As an RN you should know that it is usually PCP that causes people to be largely 'impervious' to pain, not meth. PCP has been implicated in many of the police shootings where multiple rounds failed to stop the assailant.
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I cannot speak for other areas of the country and I do not know what the national numbers are on PCP usage. But I have worked in some bad drug areas here in Alabama (Selma) and never had a patient that, as best we could tell, was high on PCP. Seen cocaine, meth, heroin, pills of every type, spice, etc, etc. Not saying it's not here at all but it can't be very wide spread.

But my point in comment number 3 is still valid. Anybody that dopes themselves into a state where they don't feel or react to a 380 bullet isn't going to feel or react to a 9mm bullet either. In fact those police encounters you mention where multiple rounds failed to stop the assailant didn't involve an officer using a 380 now did they?
 
Kleanbore said:
No, none of us wants to be shot by a .380, or a .32, or for that matter, a .22 Short. But we do want to come out of a violent altercation unharmed.
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Speak for yourself. I don't even want to get shot with a BB gun.

There are a few reasons why .380 has gotten the short end of the stick lately. 9mm has seen tons of advancements in bullet design to close the performance gap with .40/45 and other "better" calibers.
 
Originally Posted by Nom de Forum
The only pain I worry about when carrying is the pain in the keester it is when some people detect your pistol and freak out. In a metropolitan environment that can quickly become an ordeal of answering questions from the police. My second rule of CCW is insure you are not detected. I don't see guys inadvertently flashing their CCW very often but I frequently detect guys who are carrying because their large pistol prints, or interferes with the natural movement of clothing and/or body movement. A G42 is a pocket pistol for much of my clothing and when it is not a P-32 becomes my pocket pistol. When the clothing I am wearing ensures discrete, undetectable carry of larger pistols I carry them.
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TarDevil said:
Good point, but nearly all the above is manageable with proper selection of holsters and clothing. I carried a SR9c at my office in business casual attire for a couple years undetected by my pro 2a company owner, only changed to a subcompact 9mm when back issues made the larger gun painful.

I recognize that mouse guns are the only choice for the way some people dress... but in many cases it is a gun choice for the way they dress, and not dressing for the gun they could carry.
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I dress so I can discretely carry at least my smallest pistol. I do not dress for “the gun they could carry”. I dress so that I fit in with the people who will be around me so I don’t draw attention for appearing out of the ordinary and then I chose the appropriate gun for discrete carry. Regardless of being able to carry a SR9c undetected for a couple of years all it would have taken is for someone to inadvertently bump in to you and feel something unnaturally hard between you and them and the jig could be up. In the office environments I have worked in situations of unintentional and intentional physical contact occasionally occurred. There were also times when body movement during certain work activities could have result in detection of something even the size of a SR9c. Granted it is my work environments I am describing and yours’ could have been much less prone to those situations occurring.
 
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Originally Posted by Nom de Forum
...The only pain I worry about when carrying is the pain in the keester it is when some people detect your pistol and freak out.
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Walt Sherrill said:
Serious question. Is this something you've seen a lot in your neck of the woods?

Around here in NC, concealed carry is generally concealed... and most examples of open carry don't get a lot of attention. (You'll see it in Wal-Mart, sometimes.) Maybe it's just better (less a cause of concern) in the South?

But a few cases of OPEN CARRY have made me uncomfortable. The guys who went into the big Box Store with AR's strapped across their chests were examples. In cases like that, I wonder about the the maturity of the folks involved, and suspect their mental ages haven't kept up with their chronological age...
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No, that is not something I’ve seen a lot in my neck of the woods, a possible benefit of living in Firearm Paradise a.k.a. Arizona. I am sure though it is only a matter of time, location, and an encounter with an irrational/irresponsible/mean spirited person before it happens to someone who fails to discretely CCW. A person carrying a gun makes other people nervous depending on the time, location, and appearance of the person carrying. I guarantee every person on THR under some condition of time and location can become nervous when they realize that someone is carrying a gun even when later it could be proved there was never a specific action that warranted becoming nervous. The mere fact that someone who is different in some way from what we perceive as not like us can in lessor and greater degrees provoke at the very least an irrational nervous reaction.

I have had one very unpleasant experience with someone becoming aware I am concealed carrying a gun. That was when I served on a H.O.A. Board of Directors for a very large condominium complex. We were having a problem with two homes that absentee owners rented out to suspected meth users/sellers. There had been some confrontations that required calls to 911 but of course the police were their in 5 minutes but that could have easily been 4 minutes too late. I never walked the property without a CCW. The unpleasant experience I mentioned above was not a confrontation with the druggies, something I really tried to avoid, but with another homeowner. This homeowner was in dispute with the H.O.A. over rule violations and failure to pay monthly maintenance fees. While I do not know how this person realized or came to suspect I carried a CCW, they attempted to use this fact at a homeowners meeting to attack my character and fitness to serve on the Board. Since that time I never carry a pistol that my clothing cannot make almost impossible to detect. I never want to again have to make the kind of explanations I had to make that night in front of scores of homeowners. No damage was done to my reputation with the majority of homeowners but a few of them never understood and it reduced their trust in me.

I see no reason to Open Carry unless you are in an environment where the threat level makes it imperative to be capable of making the fastest possible draw or your personal comfort carrying openly does not make other people psychologically uncomfortable. Making other people psychologically uncomfortable does not benefit the support of Second Amendment rights.
 
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When does a .380 beat a 9?
When the 9 is being fired from one of the micro 9s so in vogue right now.
The short barrel kills velocity which kills expansion.

Not that either one is my preferred carry piece.
My compact 9s are backup guns.
My only .380 is a Kel-Tec which is a backup to my backup.
 
Todd1700 said:
I cannot speak for other areas of the country and I do not know what the national numbers are on PCP usage. But I have worked in some bad drug areas here in Alabama (Selma) and never had a patient that, as best we could tell, was high on PCP. Seen cocaine, meth, heroin, pills of every type, spice, etc, etc. Not saying it's not here at all but it can't be very wide spread.

But my point in comment number 3 is still valid. Anybody that dopes themselves into a state where they don't feel or react to a 380 bullet isn't going to feel or react to a 9mm bullet either. In fact those police encounters you mention where multiple rounds failed to stop the assailant didn't involve an officer using a 380 now did they?
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Anyone not realizing and preparing for the very likely need to engage in hand to hand combat after using a pistol of any caliber to shoot a close range attacker is making a big mistake.
 
Hey guys, just practice more, and blow out their knee, I have yet to see someone on any drug, walk on a knee that a hollow point just blew apart. If you aim low and take out the legs the guy isn't going anyware. 3 or 4 shots to the legs and they go down and you are now fighting a midget.
This is assuming you aren't taking fire. then the chest or head would be a better target.
But with so many members able to make 1 inch groups at 30 yards, there should be no problem hitting a large area of the thigh or knee, or even shins.
Situational Awareness is key to this stuff along with moving while shooting.
 
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Posted by george burns:

Hey guys, just practice more, and blow out their knee, I have yet to see someone on any drug, walk on a knee that a hollow point just blew apart. If you aim low and take out the legs the guy isn't going anyware. 3 or 4 shots to the legs and they go down and you are now fighting a midget.
This is assuming you aren't taking fire. then the chest or head would be a better target.
But with so many members able to make 1 inch groups at 30 yards, there should be no problem hitting a large area of the thigh or knee, or even shins.
Situational Awareness is key to this stuff along with moving while shooting.
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Surely you jest!

One's chances of hitting a fast-moving target the size of a knee would be extremely low!

There is a reason why instructors tell us to aim for the upper chest area. One has a reasonable chance of hitting it under pressure.

I will draw while moving, but if it is at all possible, I will shoot while standing.

Dp not confuse shooting for groups at a ranges with drawing fast and firing rapidly at common self defense distances.
 
george burns said:
Hey guys, just practice more, and blow out their knee, I have yet to see someone on any drug, walk on a knee that a hollow point just blew apart. If you aim low and take out the legs the guy isn't going anyware. 3 or 4 shots to the legs and they go down and you are now fighting a midget.
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I'm gonna pass over this bit of "advice."
 
Nom de Forum said:
In the office environments I have worked in situations of unintentional and intentional physical contact occasionally occurred. There were also times when body movement during certain work activities could have result in detection of something even the size of a SR9c. Granted it is my work environments I am describing and yours’ could have been much less prone to those situations occurring.
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All a part of learning to carry concealed. I'm aware of body movements that could print, and I avoid situations where physical contact is an issue.

As I said... I have carried several years undetected. There's a reason I remained "undetected."
 
tardevil said:
As I said... I have carried several years undetected. There's a reason I remained "undetected."
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How do you know that you are "undetected"?

Do you expect that anyone who notices you carrying a gun will run up to you and tell you that they can see it?

I don't tell people when I notice them carrying a gun.
 
george burns said:
Hey guys, just practice more, and blow out their knee...
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Heh! I'm going to assume you meant this tongue-in-cheek!

This is what my wife used to think nearly 20 years ago, early in our marriage. I had to disabuse her of this notion in short order.

I consider myself a pretty good shot. But I don't have any kind of force-on-force training or, indeed, any real range time which promotes self-defense styles of shooting. And even if I was on par with the likes of Jerry Miculek and the real-life scenario came up in which I had the "ideal shot" at a knee, I wouldn't take it. When things go South and the Adrenaline pumps shift to fast speed, I don't have the time, the opportunity, nor the ideal physiological conditions to be targeting a moving joint that's only about 3 inches in diameter when my life or the life of another depends on it.

I told my wife many years ago that the ONLY time one should draw a gun on another human being is because they are in fear for their life or the life of another. When that moment comes, deliberately using anything less than the most effective application of deadly force is foolish in the extreme.


In the years since, having had three children of her own and seeing the world for what it is with respect to bad guys (and gals), she's come around on this. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the bear who came between my wife and her cubs.

;)
 
" Making other people psychologically uncomfortable" That must be a city folk thing. I see folks carrying handguns and rifles openly all the time around these parts. People are very polite to each other.
 
TarDevil said:
All a part of learning to carry concealed. I'm aware of body movements that could print, and I avoid situations where physical contact is an issue.

As I said... I have carried several years undetected. There's a reason I remained "undetected."
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It is impossible for you to know with certainty that you “have carried several years undetected”; It is only possible for you to know that nobody has informed you of detection. No doubt that is largely due to your skill and a smaller amount of luck. Nobody can be “aware of body movements that could print” 100% of the time. That level of concentration is impossible to maintain and an unanticipated body movement is only a slip on an undetected slippery floor away. Sometimes physical contact cannot be prevented for no other reason that it is a possibility not an impossibility when around people.
 
TarDevil said:
As I said... I have carried several years undetected. There's a reason I remained "undetected."
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I've carried for years undetected too, and detected, and probably left a few people scratching their heads wondering. :uhoh:

At the end of the day I really don't worry about it. Far less stressful if you don't worry about it. ;)
 
In Georgia it's legal to open carry with a weapons carry license so printing is not a problem. I usually carry OWB with a cover garment, but if the wind blows and it shows it's not a problem.
 
jimbo555 said:
" Making other people psychologically uncomfortable" That must be a city folk thing. I see folks carrying handguns and rifles openly all the time around these parts. People are very polite to each other.
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The population density of my geographically large/population small state is very low and the majority of it is concentrated in two metropolitan areas. I know I am not the only gun owner in Arizona who has been in the desert far from town and been a little nervous when unexpectedly meeting strangers carrying guns. Here in the Wild West a person could be easily “disappeared” never to be seen again. I am far more comfortable in seeing a stranger with a gun in the city since I am surrounded by other people who can provide help and the police are only single digit minutes away. Unfortunately even here in Gun Paradise a.k.a. Arizona there are many people who do not share the reasons for my comfort. I try not to alienate those people because many are 2A fence sitters that could cross to our side in a political fight.
 
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