Pepper Spray--The Truth

denster said:

OCT

Any opinion on Fox 25ftfm 5.3 foam OC?

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Thanks for the question

I have mixed feelings about Fox. Their sprays will do the job, which, I guess is the most important thing, but some of there marketing really rubs me the wrong way. Here are just a couple of observations:

When they say things on their website like "the safest, most intense, defense sprays you can buy!" That is just hogwash. Their "secret" ingredient is a chemical called Perc or tetrachloroethylene. This chemical is a known carcinogen. So for them to say the quote above is like saying cigarettes are "safe." Obviously, using it once or twice in your life isn't going put you at risk most likely, but what about the folks who've been using the product for years?

The 5.3 is not the hottest pepper spray on the market, contrary to popular believe (UDAP WHL is). It only has roughly .67% MCs. That puts it around a Level II. This is one of the reasons I prefer the MG. It is the perc that gives it, it's perceived heat and it has been to know to cause some burns on the skin.
Which brings me to me last issue with them...

They are still talking about SHU as being the end all, be all when it comes to the heat of a pepper spray. That is very old school thinking. It's like they are trapped in the 90's with that.
HPLC testing is THE most effective way to determine the strength of a product. This testing superceeds all previous testing methods and is totally objective, and completely eliminates all the marketing BS.

All that said, Here is how I would rate them Mean Green (cone)>5.3 (cone)>5.3 (foam)>Mean Green (stream)>5.3 (stream)

I hate their keychain sprays. In my opinion, they are the worst on the market. Pure junk! Not because of the formula. The component and propellants used makes this the worst keychain unit I've ever come across.

*Insider info: I don't think it's been official announced yet, but be on the look-out for Mean Green Foam!*

Airman Basic said:

Our department has issued Freeze+p for years. Any opinions?

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Hi Airman,

It is a nice product, but modern day 100% OC defense sprays are superior to the blends. Freeze+P is low on OC. Most these days are in the 5%-10% range. Tear gas, how it is used today in defense sprays, has a greater chance of failure when used on someone under the influence of drugs/alcohol or psychotic. Reason being, they are temporarily immune to pain. Tear gas is used in this spray to cause the sensation of "skin burning." The crackhead you use it on probably won't even feel it. It will be the OC that does the work and in that product it is a little to low for my liking. It will/should have the desired effect on most everyone else, however....Thanks for the question!

OCT

SleazyRider said:

1. A dozen or so years ago I was camped out in Glacier National Park and observed my ill-informed neighbors spraying the perimeter of their campsite with bear spray to ward off Ursus arctos horribilis (grizzly bear) proactively. This caused great amusement among the more seasoned---not to mention upwind---campers, but a discussion ensued where someone claimed that the faint smell of pepper will actually attract bears. Have you ever heard of this?

2. Would you recommend pepper spray to bicyclists? If so, how would it be carried and deployed?

My compliments on a very informative thread!




As an aside, and in a lighthearted vein, I remember reading somewhere that Chicago is no windier than any other city. It was apparently so-named by a newspaper editor who was referring to local politicians.

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Thank you for the kind words!

True story: When bear spray was first released, it was tagged "bear repellant." This caused much confusion, because just like you pointed out, folks where spraying it around the campsites and on things they didn't want the bears to "touch." That is not how bear spray was intended to be used. For it to be most effective, it has to be sprayed direct into the face of a bear (just like with any mammal). They went back and change the description to read bear deterrent to eliminate this confusion.

Pepper spray for the cyclist is a great idea. The best one right now is by Sabre, but as long as you have a way to attach the can to the rig, you can use just about any brand you like, so long is it is a stream pattern. Streams are best for this application. It cuts right through the wind drag.

Great tidbit on the Windy City, thank you for that!

OCT

If anyone would like a personal recommendation, I'd be happy to help. Just tell me a little about your lifestyle and the conditions in which it will be primarily be used and I'll point you in the right direction. Thank you all for the questions and hospitality!

OCT

19-3Ben said:

Very interesting. Thanks. When I was riding more seriously (125-150mi per week) I was sticking a Kimber Pepper-blaster in my back jersey pocket on the opposite side from my gels and whatnot. I found the size and weight was perfect. My one real problem with it was that I knew it would take me time to reach it if needed. Perhaps I'll figure out a way to rig up a can mounted to the frame in front of me for future rides. It has been a while since I got on the bike honestly (kid and life got in the way), but planning to go out with the kid in the coming summer.

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Thank you for your kind words, 19-3Ben. It is my pleasure.

Regarding the Kimber Pepper Blaster for a cycling application: I actually think it is a pretty good choice for that. Although, I feel the KPB is fudementally flawed for SD situations in almost all real world scenarios where a civilian might need to use it, this case maybe the exception. One caveat however; if it was only carried for use on dogs. For dealing with dogs chasing (while on a bike), I think it's great. Against a human in that situation, not so much.
In the real world, a civilian is almost never going to use defense spray at a distance greater than 3 feet. LE on the other hand, can and do use it much further out to spray a subject who is non-compliant. The KPB is horrible at close range.

Sabre makes a bike unit that is .75 oz and has break-away Velcro. It is a stream and will have at least 20 long bursts in it. That would be more than enough to deal with both 2 and 4 legged trouble.

Please let me know if you need anything else.

OTC

Airman Basic said:

The guys who sell it say the reason for the low OC is higher concentrations just make the perp vomit, which you don't want if you're trying to cuff & stuff the guy.

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Interesting. Was this an Aerko Rep or just some salesmen? Breathing in a good dose of OC can cause retching and eventually vomiting, but this isn't all that common. You would need to inhale a lot of OC though. I definitely would not want to be dealing with vomit either, but I don't think it is as common as this person is making it seem. I can tell you that COs are begging for higher concentrations of OC products. In most max security prisons they won't use anything less than 10% OC. They wouldn't even think about anything less than 5% much less 1%, if that helps put it in perspective.

Thanks for the follow-up info.

OCT

Aragon said:

OCT:

Simply put, what is the strongest, most effectively pepper spray available to the average civilian?

Is it the UDAP World's Hottest? Would you recommend this product? Thanks again.

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My pleasure, Aragon.

Without question the strongest product on the market is the UDAP WHL. I honestly think it is overkill, though. It would be just as effective it where half as strong, but every company wants to have the hottest. What I like most about it is the fact that it is a cone patterns, which is very hard to find in some sizes. That is my biggest gripe with Sabre. They are the global leader in pepper spray, yet they hardly offer any variations. The biggest sizes come in different patterns, but the keychain sizes (which is the most popular size) are all streams with the exception of the Spitfire. The Spitfire is half the strength of the most popular stream.

I wouldn't hesitate to carry UDAP WHL, but the rest of their personal sprays are nothing special.

OCT

19-3Ben said:

Thanks so much for the advice on the spray for a bike. It's on my short list to purchase in the ver near future!



Followup question. Since I have the Kimber Pepper Blaster anyway, would that be a better pepper spray to keep in the car since it uses a charge instead of a propellant? Would the pressures be different and therefore less likely to leak?

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My pleasure, 19-3Ben. Happy to help.

The short answer is yes. I'd still double check with the manufacturer though, just to be safe.

I'm always a little leery of a manufacturer when they can't even provide, or get the facts right on their own site. For example, they make claims on their site that are just simply not true. They also claim 3 year shelf-life on one site, 4 year shelf-life on another. Not to mention I've never seen the all important specs of the formula either. Sorry if this is long winded, but it helps put things into perspective.

If I remember correctly instructions come in the tin. Maybe they also can provide clarity on this since their own site(s) are somewhat confusing.

Hope this helps. If you need anything else, please let me know.

rl2669 said:

Hi OCT,

What do you think of the ASP series of products (palm/key/street defender), and what is the relative hotness (if that's the right word) of their OC formulation?

Thanks!

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I think it is really cool. Love the fact that it can be sprayed from any angle. Doubles as a kubaton. Sabre makes the cartridges for it and the specs of the formula are 10% OC/2 million SHU/ 1.33% MCs. Only real knock-- the smaller ones only have a few sprays/bursts. Great product overall...

Thanks for the question.

Just to follow up on Sabre. Here is the insider scoop...

Sabre has an absolute stranglehold on the industry. Virtually everything goes through them.
Let's say someone comes up with a new defense spray delivery system, for example. Now they need someone as an OC filler. They pitch Sabre, Sabre agrees to do the filling, and then, here's the rub, they want a first dibs on the innovation. So Sabre get their piece of the pie through the filling AND a piece of the innovation. Take Spitfire. Sabre used to do the filling for them when they where a small company out of TX. Sabre acquired Spitfire a few years later. If you look closely at Sabre's website, you'll see that they have something very similar to ASP's line. They do the filling with the contingency that they also have access to the form factor ASP created. Same with the StopStrap pepper spray.

OCT

...and make no mistake about it. All the pepper spray producers search long and hard for any and all threads on pepper spray. They are keenly aware of what is being said in forums like this. So, if they aren't aware of this one, it's only a matter of time.

So get your questions in now, before they catch on

OTC

cpileri said:

Sir,
I was checking out UDAPs products, and looking for "WHL" and found their jogger fogger and mugger fogger sprays?
Are these the "nothing special" ones you mentioned? or are these the recommended "hottest" ones?

For that matter, is their bear spray anything special?

C-

ref:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001QGXNBU...UTF8&colid=GEXUE41C25YZ&coliid=I2742PCS8BEIGF

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Z0T4YO...UTF8&colid=GEXUE41C25YZ&coliid=I1IM7MXVFRTSZE

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001QGTZIU...=UTF8&colid=GEXUE41C25YZ&coliid=IJ2D812KLLA9Y

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cpileri,

Thank you for pointing that out. My post on UDAP was poorly worded... allow me to clarify.

Everything besides the WHL and bear spray is nothing special. Please note that the WHL only comes in the conical spray pattern. Their bear spray, and all other bear spray on the market, is essentially all the same. Since the EPA oversees bear spray, every formula is virtually identical.

Please let me know if you need anything else.

OCT

Just a quick note on Amazon in regards to pepper spray: It may be tempting to purchase it from Amazon, but those units are well into its useful life cycle. Read not very fresh. Most pepper spray has a 4-5 year shelf-life. Almost all pepper spray sold on the Big A is 2, sometimes 3 years in. Doesn't mean you won't get lucky from time to time, however the stock there is far from fresh.

OTC

RustyShackelford said:

Hi OCT:
What is your personal opine & training perspective of Cold Steel's Inferno brand?
It seems hot and could be effective but I don't see it being superior to Mean Green or Vexor.
CS often seems a tad aggressive & bombastic with their ads & marketing too.

Id also ask;
Have you or any industry colleagues ever really saw or knew of any private citizens using other common products like hair spray, wasp spray, cooking oil(can), deodorant etc as a weapon or self defense product then having lawsuits or criminal charges?
Id think it would be rare but I'm sure a documented case or incident might be in the US.

Rusty S

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Inferno is a nice product. I like the fact that they clearly state the numbers and the fact that it contains no carcinogens. The marketing is typical of CS Inferno only comes in foam, so it's tough to compare to other spray patterns. From a purely numbers perspective, it would be considered a level III, same as MG and Vexor. I think the black pepper is bologna though. I have first-hand knowledge of virtually every product on the US market. I fired Inferno many times in testing and the black pepper added nothing. It is supposed to activate the sneeze reflex and "draw" the OC in deeper. Not buying it. When ever I breathe OC I cough, not sneeze.

Wasp spray, for sure. This may be the biggest myth of all in the pepper spray world. The CEO of Sabre actually had to make a video to specifically address it. It is routinely touted as a good alternative to pepper spray. It is a terrible replacement for pepper spray. Let's forget for a minute that it is a federal crime to use on anything other than wasps, it may very well cause blindness. I know it's been allegedly used many times for SD, but the only one that I've seen with my own two eyes was a youtube video. It was a surveillance video were the clerk used it to thwart an attempted robbery.

Thanks for the question Rusty

OCT

rklessdriver said:

Thanks for comming here and giving out this info/answering questions.

I was first sprayed with OC back in 1999 when I went thru the NC BLET (Police Acdmy)....

I was never a big believer in OC becasue prior to that (1994-1998) I had been in the "gas chamber" couple times a year as part of noraml training, when I was on my first enlistment in the Marine Corps.

I'll tell you what, that first hit with OC was something else. Totally changed my opinions on the effectiveness of OC as compared to CS. I honestly don't remember what brand the instructors used. It was a stream and they got a group of recruits on line (standing at parade rest) and one at a time, hit us right across the bridge of the nose with a 2 second burst.

In 2003 I went back in the USMC and since 2007 have been a DOD contractor. I have been sprayed as part of annual training for deployments and various other stuff every year or so. Pretty much the same training scenario as the first time.... stand in line and get hit in the eyes with a 2 second burst..... I personally don't think that the effects are nearly as bad as they were that first time. Obviously not something I'd care to do for fun but the effects today are nothing compared to that first time in 1999....

Is it possible that the stuff we use is not as strong as the first time? Is it more a mental thing? Do people develop a physical resistance to it over time with repeated exposure?

thanks
Will

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Thank you for your service, rklessdriver.

My pleasure. I'm happy to help get the truth out. To your question:
It is not possible to build a physiological tolerance to OC. It is the psychological effects that folks can get accustom to. When someone takes a live hit, they typically panic. You just lost your vision and perhaps can't breathe (depending on spray pattern used). People start to bug-out. Someone who's been hit multiple times (think inmates) will still suffer the physiological, but aren't going to panic because they no what to expect e.g. loss of vision, burning etc. I know someone who's taken 50 live hits, which is insane to me, and every single time his eyes slam shut and he temporarily loses his vision.

So, in a nutshell, you nailed it. It is mostly a mental thing. Of course in your specific situation
it could also be attributed to difference in the strength of the products used over the years.

Thanks for the question!

OCT